Thought--Military

Pilgrim said:
I'm quoting myself as a reference.

There was more than one officer in Vietnam who was 'fragged' for issuing illegal or immoral orders to his troops.

Not by me ! [smile] Even tho I served then, I wasn't lucky enough to be assigned there.

I'm just pointing this out to show that there are, I'm sure, people today who would not follow illegal or immoral orders, just as there were then.
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Well put and absolutely true, some even were killed by friendly fire, that is what I heard when I was there.
 
I hope that neither we, nor our descendants, ever see the day when it would be necessary to defend our country from its government.
 
clinotus said:
Well I dont see any guns on you at the moment sir. Have a nice day. [grin]
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I'd go one better: I'd walk around, conveniently not find anything and if one of my fellow soldiers did find something, I'd do everything in my power to convince him that he was mistaken.

x-frog-22 said:
I would obey the Warning Orders as they were read to me for the mission,and senior ranking personal above me at the scene,i will not go to the brig.
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This would make a perfect example for my response to the other thread about servicemen preference in hiring practices.
 
As a non-military person, my hope would be that The officers at the top would refuse to issue the order as directed due to it being in conflict with the consitituion.

This should never become an issue for the soldiers on the ground. and if it did, I would respect their decision to turn against their officer making the order and remove him from command.
 
My guard unit (1-104th) was in New Orleans after Katrina. Just for the record, we never were ordered to confiscate weapons. We did run into several homeowners who were armed. We basically told them we were there to help, we'd be doing patrols, where we were set up, and if you need help just ask. As far as the original question goes, I would disobey that order. On a side note, its unfortunate that there is no block of instruction on the Constitution at basic training.
 
I've often wondered why the gun and gun magazine industry cozies up to law enforcement (guys in blue) when it's them who will be kicking your doors down when the order comes. This is not meant to offend those cops who like firearms and enjoy the company of citizens who shoot for sport. But as a percentage of the force, they are damn few. Would like to hear from police on this forum what their take is. Would they give up their jobs? I'm not sure I would if I was a policeman with a morgage and a family to feed. It's a tough thing - I think your own butt comes first so I sympathize with the police. If you don't agree just ask yourself if you'ld give up your current job in these economic times on principal.
 
18 year old LCPL Hoskins might follow unlawful orders to grab civilians guns.

21 year old SGT Hoskins would tell his platoon SGT to go f*** himself.
 
Ripach said:
It's been a few years since I served, so I may be answering from my current perspective and not that of a newly trained and naive 18 year old soldier. I would not participate in a military action of any type against the citizens of this country as a U. S. soldier, I would consider to be both an unlawful order and a violation of my oath to serve said citizens. JMHO so take it for what it's worth.
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Agreed, and I haven't served in awhile also.[grin]
 
I saw the you tube video on this. I was very disturbed by it. All of the soldiers interviewed said they felt terrible about doing it. One said he felt like he was invading his own country, and you could see in his face how distraught he was about it. But what was so disturbing to me....not one of them refused to do it.
 
MrsWildweasel said:
Yeah, what can I say.[laugh] I always said they shouldn't have left an E-3 in charge. I think I gave my boss either gray hairs or made him bald.[shocked] [laugh]
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Yup, agree. What made it a little more difficult, as I progressed in rank, was having to deal with folks of higher and higher rank. The lower the rank, the lower level you have to deal with. I'm sure you understand.

Grin, my basic makeup never changed, just found it more difficult dealing with "superiors" as I progressed.

Take this with a grain of salt. Was pushed and cajoled to go to OCS. Refused all. Did not want to be part of the political bullshit that you know goes on. Stuck with being a CWO in CID and never regretted it. [wink]
 
Ray-500 said:
Yup, agree. What made it a little more difficult, as I progressed in rank, was having to deal with folks of higher and higher rank. The lower the rank, the lower level you have to deal with. I'm sure you understand.

Grin, my basic makeup never changed, just found it more difficult dealing with "superiors" as I progressed.

Take this with a grain of salt. Was pushed and cajoled to go to OCS. Refused all. Did not want to be part of the political bullshit that you know goes on. Stuck with being a CWO in CID and never regretted it. [wink]
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Oh unfortunately I had plenty of O's that I had to deal with, and respectfully (sort of)tell them off. My make up never changed, still hasn't. I might be a little more tactful now that I'm older. [laugh] Little bit.[wink]
At least my boss knew that by the time I left work my work was always done. At least I always warned him with a note on his desk on who ever I pissed off.[laugh] I worked swing shift he worked days, so I would only see my boss when I was coming on shift.
About the same political bullshit as MI.[wink]
 
MrsWildweasel said:
Oh unfortunately I had plenty of O's that I had to deal with, and respectfully (sort of)tell them off. My make up never changed, still hasn't. I might be a little more tactful now that I'm older. [laugh] Little bit.[wink]
At least my boss knew that by the time I left work my work was always done. At least I always warned him with a note on his desk on who ever I pissed off.[laugh] I worked swing shift he worked days, so I would only see my boss when I was coming on shift.
About the same political bullshit as MI.[wink]
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I think we're speaking of the same basic, personal makeup. Goes to the root of who/what a person truly is. [wink]
 
Yeah I would say it's the same.[laugh] The funny thing was the higher the O the less they really knew of what they actually wanted. The most fun I had was with an O who had signed for ALL of Field Station and couldn't account for everything.[laugh]
 
MrsWildweasel said:
Yeah I would say it's the same.[laugh] The funny thing was the higher the O the less they really knew of what they actually wanted. The most fun I had was with an O who had signed for ALL of Field Station and couldn't account for everything.[laugh]
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Grin, been there, done that. As probably with most units, a new O, given a "responsibility", most likely disregards it as just "paperwork". Big Mistake.

My own "in unit" responsibilities had to do with weapons accountability, internal security, etc.

Would never sign for anything that I did not personally account for. Didn't care about "quick and easy"....if I was responsible....wanted to know all....especially with firearms.

Other than the " in house" bull, the job itself was rewarding and enjoyable...at least to me. Guess that also goes back to individual makeup.[wink]
 
I was supply. I was responsible for checking in the crates of parts we would get in, put them in the right places, make sure all paperwork,records reflected the necessary changes, and also every night typed and had messages encrypted and sent back to the states on what we needed. Also did key punch and filing. Usually it was just me working swings. We were really short handed.
I never saw an O sweat so much when he couldn't account for everything it was actually comical.
I never really minded my job at all. Everyone told me though for a first assignment it probably wasn't the best because of the really lax environment. I have no regrets.[laugh]
Whatever my John Hancock went on I made sure I knew what it was and whether it was done right.
I figured if I was going to get busted it wasn't going to be for something I didn't know what it was or done wrong.
 
I was a US Marine and always followed orders (no matter how stupid i thought they were). that being said, this is a tough question.... I believe in following orders but also belive this violates the Constitution which I was sworn to uphold and defend against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC... I would probably have to be a "Consciencous Objecter"(never thought Id be proud to be one of those) I could not in good faith follow that order!
 
MrsWildweasel said:
I was supply. I was responsible for checking in the crates of parts we would get in, put them in the right places, make sure all paperwork,records reflected the necessary changes, and also every night typed and had messages encrypted and sent back to the states on what we needed. Also did key punch and filing. Usually it was just me working swings. We were really short handed.
I never saw an O sweat so much when he couldn't account for everything it was actually comical.
I never really minded my job at all. Everyone told me though for a first assignment it probably wasn't the best because of the really lax environment. I have no regrets.[laugh]
Whatever my John Hancock went on I made sure I knew what it was and whether it was done right.
I figured if I was going to get busted it wasn't going to be for something I didn't know what it was or done wrong.
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Yup, and that's really the way it needs to be done...no matter rank, and no matter venue. If you are responsible....you verify.

Grin, could you imagine myself as a CID Special Agent, being so lax that internal inventories were just "pushed through" with no accountability? What the hell would my "creds" be in that situation? Did not want to hear it. How in the hell could I go out and investigate other units or persons, unless my own house was in order? Again, I guess, comes back to basic makeup. [wink]
 
MrsWildweasel said:
Bad conduct discharge.[thinking]
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Yeah. It says so right there on his website. Was it worth it? His case is worth revisiting in light of the OP's original question. In Obama's Army (and Navy, and Marines, and Air Force) more young men and women may be facing similar prediciments.

"What's past is prologue." - Wm. Shakespeare, The Tempest
 
Ray-500 said:
Yup, and that's really the way it needs to be done...no matter rank, and no matter venue. If you are responsible....you verify.

Grin, could you imagine myself as a CID Special Agent, being so lax that internal inventories were just "pushed through" with no accountability? What the hell would my "creds" be in that situation? Did not want to hear it. How in the hell could I go out and investigate other units or persons, unless my own house was in order? Again, I guess, comes back to basic makeup. [wink]
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Oh some of the crap I would get from senior NCO's that should have known better was unbelievable.[rolleyes] I always gave back as good as they came up with.
I laughed when an E-7 threatened me with trying to get me busted. Told him go for it and pointed out he still wasn't going to get the part he wanted until he filled out the paperwork correctly. Even showed him how to fill it out right.[thinking] Still caught crap. Ah well. The funny thing with that E-7 he was very arrogant, and didn't like being told he was wrong.
Yeah I lived on the edge of getting busted quite a bit, but if they were wrong, they were wrong and I pointed it out.[laugh] Just cause they didn't like hearing it from someone lower wasn't my fault.[laugh]
 
theGringo said:
Yeah. It says so right there on his website. Was it worth it? His case is worth revisiting in light of the OP's original question. In Obama's Army (and Navy, and Marines, and Air Force) more young men and women may be facing similar prediciments.

"What's past is prologue." - Wm. Shakespeare, The Tempest
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You have to weigh your options, at least I always do /did. Was it worth me possibly being busted, it usually was. I always figured I would take the consequences of my actions.
He probably felt the same way.
 

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