"Toby's Brigade" Collects and Turns in 95,000 Certified Signatures

[40 Creedmoor fan]

So we got people to sign petition that accomplished NOTHING! Where are the lawsuits? Where is suspension of the law? Where are all these "wonderful" pro-2A orgs?! SAF, FPC, GOA?! They want my money and do literally NOTHING! They go after suppressor laws in 2A states when people of MA are not even able to own a normal rifle! They fight for criminals getting their gun rights back while law-abiding citizen of MA are not able to defend themselves with a firearm. Newton assailant is released without charges and the innocent man who defended his live is charged with a crime. Where is the national outrage!? How come all these groups are silent? Perhaps they decided that US citizen in Massachusetts are not US citizen and have given up on us.

 

[Mountain]

This dick measuring contest was brought to you by Hood chocolate milk and the letter D.

LOL Stud Club Instructor.

 

[Mesatchornug]

So we got people to sign petition that accomplished NOTHING! Where are the lawsuits? Where is suspension of the law? Where are all these "wonderful" pro-2A orgs?! SAF, FPC, GOA?! They want my money and do literally NOTHING! They go after suppressor laws in 2A states when people of MA are not even able to own a normal rifle! They fight for criminals getting their gun rights back while law-abiding citizen of MA are not able to defend themselves with a firearm. Newton assailant is released without charges and the innocent man who defended his live is charged with a crime. Where is the national outrage!? How come all these groups are silent? Perhaps they decided that US citizen in Massachusetts are not US citizen and have given up on us.

Many of them have publicly stated they're working on filings. Thanks.

 

[42!]

They did back in 1976.

I was trying to be subtle, I've mentioned the overturned ban in 76 before.

 

[42!]

I get that. I would like to understand wha the top 2 or 3 reasons are. 25K is a lot.

Think of the audience. How many here would sign a petition to support something, then put down false info because they don't want to be "on a list" and, incorrectly, figure no one is checking the names anyway.

 

[42!]

So we got people to sign petition that accomplished NOTHING! Where are the lawsuits? Where is suspension of the law? Where are all these "wonderful" pro-2A orgs?! SAF, FPC, GOA?! They want my money and do literally NOTHING! They go after suppressor laws in 2A states when people of MA are not even able to own a normal rifle! They fight for criminals getting their gun rights back while law-abiding citizen of MA are not able to defend themselves with a firearm. Newton assailant is released without charges and the innocent man who defended his live is charged with a crime. Where is the national outrage!? How come all these groups are silent? Perhaps they decided that US citizen in Massachusetts are not US citizen and have given up on us.

The vote and the lawsuits are different paths. One does not depend or preclude the other.

The petition/vote is following the established path, which has been well discussed. At this point we need to prepair for the campaigne, but it's too early to acktually do anything. The Gov needs to do their side, including put together the summary. I expect that when they do this the wording will be challanged. Sit back and relax, this is a slow process.

As for lawsuits, there are others already active in other venues that will/can impact MA, in the meantime, new ones are being worked on. This is not a sprint, the details can sink a case, a lot goes into these cases. And talking about the specific arguments on a public forum before filing is not a good idea.

 

[pastera]

The signature campaign informed a ton of people about the change in law.
It also got a large number of people involved.

The fight is now in the courts.
And we have a good number of great decisions to work with now.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

The vote and the lawsuits are different paths. One does not depend or preclude the other.

The petition/vote is following the established path, which has been well discussed. At this point we need to prepair for the campaigne, but it's too early to acktually do anything. The Gov needs to do their side, including put together the summary. I expect that when they do this the wording will be challanged. Sit back and relax, this is a slow process.

As for lawsuits, there are others already active in other venues that will/can impact MA, in the meantime, new ones are being worked on. This is not a sprint, the details can sink a case, a lot goes into these cases. And talking about the specific arguments on a public forum before filing is not a good idea.

First off, I want to thank you for your thoughtful and civilized reply!

To my argument...
Last year, the lawsuit against MA AWB was ruled to not be in conflict with Bruin decision(Massachusetts Judge Rules Against the Second Amendment). No follow-up, no appeal. nothing. zilch. Do you see why there is little trust in "sit back and relax, this is a slow process"? There is no process, just abandonment.

 

[center442]

So we got people to sign petition that accomplished NOTHING! Where are the lawsuits? Where is suspension of the law? Where are all these "wonderful" pro-2A orgs?! SAF, FPC, GOA?! They want my money and do literally NOTHING! They go after suppressor laws in 2A states when people of MA are not even able to own a normal rifle! They fight for criminals getting their gun rights back while law-abiding citizen of MA are not able to defend themselves with a firearm. Newton assailant is released without charges and the innocent man who defended his live is charged with a crime. Where is the national outrage!? How come all these groups are silent? Perhaps they decided that US citizen in Massachusetts are not US citizen and have given up on us.

I can understand and sympathize with your frustration. I feel it too. It's hard to be patient when your rights are being violated every single day.

As other folks have pointed out there are lawsuits working their way through the courts, and not just in the PRM. If those suits get decided in our favor, particularly at SCOTUS level, then we may still have to support the referendum because I expect our legislature to follow the court's decision in the narrowest way.

Look at what we're doing as a big building job. We want it done right, and that takes time.

Embrace patience.

 

[pastera]

First off, I want to thank you for your thoughtful and civilized reply!

To my argument...
Last year, the lawsuit against MA AWB was ruled to not be in conflict with Bruin decision(Massachusetts Judge Rules Against the Second Amendment). No follow-up, no appeal. nothing. zilch. Do you see why there is little trust in "sit back and relax, this is a slow process"? There is no process, just abandonment.

I need to go back and review the arguments in that case - if I remember correctly it was a poorly argued case to begin with. But I may be thinking about the wrong case though.

I don't know if there is an appeal in process but sometimes the right thing to do is take the loss in one district and not make it worse at the appellate level creating bad case law.
Remember, there is no 1st circuit panel of judges that you can put together that results in anything other than a pure anti-2a panel.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I need to go back and review the arguments in that case - if I remember correctly it was a poorly argued case to begin with. But I may be thinking about the wrong case though.

I don't know if there is an appeal in process but sometimes the right thing to do is take the loss in one district and not make it worse at the appellate level creating bad case law.
Remember, there is no 1st circuit panel of judges that you can put together that results in anything other than a pure anti-2a panel.

The best chance with the 1st, or similarly biased courts, is to bring a case on ONE very specific issue and make it impossible to write a credible decision against us. For example, the non-citizen LTC case focused only on permanent resident aliens. The issue was simple - are people with the highest level of legal residency short of US citizenship protected by constitutional rights? Imagine trying to write an intellecutally coherent decision that such persons are only protected by a subset of the Bill of Rights. The result was a limited win, but we did take some territory for our side.

Any appeal based on "throw out this law with dozens of provisions and declare the entire thing unconstitutional" is doomed to failure unless you are facing a court that is not biased against your case.

You also have to win twice. If you win a "big chunk", the opposition will appeal to a 3 judge panel (federal) where you face a de-novo decision, which means no tailwind from the initial win. That just happened in NY where the 3 judge panel of the 2nd circuit just overturned the overturning of the sensitive place ban on NY licensed concealed carry. The citizenship win, as well as the heathen devil weed win, were small enough that MA did not appeal the favorable decisions.

A common technique is for the court to hang a decision on the weaker points in the case, and not even address the strongest points in the decision.

Sure, it would have been nice to get it to apply to all aliens legally present in the country but expanding the claim would give the court hooks to hang a denial on. A common technique is for the court to hang a decision on the weaker points in the case, and not even address the strongest points in the decision. Had we included all non-citizens legally present, the court could have hung a denial on "non-vetted visitors" posing risk not presented by US citizens. In fact, the decision stated that there was no reason to consider permanent resident aliens as less trustworthy of citizens - bearing the implicit implication that "trustworthiness" is part of the criteria who should enjoy 2A protections.

 

[42!]

First off, I want to thank you for your thoughtful and civilized reply!

To my argument...
Last year, the lawsuit against MA AWB was ruled to not be in conflict with Bruin decision(Massachusetts Judge Rules Against the Second Amendment). No follow-up, no appeal. nothing. zilch. Do you see why there is little trust in "sit back and relax, this is a slow process"? There is no process, just abandonment.

On your cited case, you are incorrect in your assertion that nothing has been done, you are also incorrect as the court has not yet ruled on the case at all, in conflict or otherwise.
The ruling you referred to was on a motion to stay, that is temporarily stop the effect of the law while the actual case moves forward. I'm not addressing the why or why not this is asked/ granted/denied. This is what the ruling was.
Since then they have appealed the motion for a stay, and are awaiting that hearing. Keep in mind that this is still a hearing on the stay, not a hearing on the case itself, that has not been scheduled yet.

You can follow the case more closely hear Court Listener Capen v. Campbell (1:22-cv-11431)

 

[pastera]

On your cited case, you are incorrect in your assertion that nothing has been done, you are also incorrect as the court has not yet ruled on the case at all, in conflict or otherwise.
The ruling you referred to was on a motion to stay, that is temporarily stop the effect of the law while the actual case moves forward. I'm not addressing the why or why not this is asked/ granted/denied. This is what the ruling was.
Since then they have appealed the motion for a stay, and are awaiting that hearing. Keep in mind that this is still a hearing on the stay, not a hearing on the case itself, that has not been scheduled yet.

You can follow the case more closely hear Court Listener Capen v. Campbell (1:22-cv-11431)

If you look at the history, you'll see why I've said that we shouldn't be trying to get preliminary injunctions from the 1st circuit. The case is stayed pending the injunction, which means the 1st circuit knows they can slow roll everything, deny at the last minute and bleed us for time and money.

We will lose in the 1st circuit so only go for very clear and narrow points with no motions for preliminary injunctions - argue that the question is so clear that the case is simple

 

[dhuze]

I love all the people here doing nothing but complaining about the people trying to do something.

You know what accomplishes nothing? Doing nothing. So STFU or actually do something besides crying in your beer.

 

[not new guy]

Setting this petition thing aside for a minute, is “doing something” that accomplishes nothing (or less than nothing) better than doing nothing in the first place?

 

[rogersmithiii]

Different world now. Leftists are like Cancer, it never stops spreading.

Not cancer. Cockroaches.

 

[HARRYM]

Not cancer. Cockroaches.

Cockroaches won't kill America, Leftists will.

 

[Chris]

Where are the lawsuits? Where is suspension of the law? Where are all these "wonderful" pro-2A orgs?! SAF, FPC, GOA?!

Sadly, you'll virtually never hear anything for the most part. What you have is the government using the unlimited resources of the state to create every roadblock, delay, etc that can be legally performed. You have a sympathetic judiciary who will allow all these stalling tactics to continue.

Meanwhile, you need to pay for the talents of legal experts to stay on top, monitor, and verify that nothing is missed. It was because of a missed response back in the 90's that lost the process to fight the "roster". Tiny little legal tricks are where these are lost.

Then, once every possible source of delay is exhausted, the judiciary will rule against the lawsuit. The cases will then move up the chain, again with all the delay tactics and force of power of the unlimited resources of the state. Not until the case reaches the federal level will any sense of actual justice begin to appear.

As we get closer to 2026, these are the things that need to be presented to the public. That, not only is the law terrible, but the state knows it is terrible and is purposely using tax dollars to delay and prolong the legal battle in an effort to bankrupt the citizens.

There is so much regarding this legislation from the method of production to the passage, to the defense that should be abhorrent to any resident regardless of the topic of firearms. Anyone supporting the legislation because "guns" should be publicly shamed for justifying the anti-American tactics used in passing and defending it.

If this law is so good, why was it crafted in secret, rammed through a vote without public hearing or even a public reading, and then forced into enactment when faced with a massively successful citizen recall campaign, all the while the government has had to vote themselves extraordinary exemptions for things that simply can not be complied with?

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

Why doesn’t the SC step in egregious cases and do some pee pee slapping to put these fascist, child molesting degenerates in their places? Why does it have to go through a 10 year process to determine that “yes Virginia, it does violate your constitutional rights” by which time they’ve started on the next freedom they want to restrict/infringe/impede? Why can they always seem to find a judge to issue an injunction for sh|t they don’t like? Trump needs to issue an executive order about the 2A. I hate going that route but we’re no longer a nation following a constitution nor does any legislative body even think about it.

Special thanks to Toby and everyone who contributed to the effort.

 

[42!]

Why doesn’t the SC step in egregious cases and do some pee pee slapping to put these fascist, child molesting degenerates in their places? Why does it have to go through a 10 year process to determine that “yes Virginia, it does violate your constitutional rights” by which time they’ve started on the next freedom they want to restrict/infringe/impede? Why can they always seem to find a judge to issue an injunction for sh|t they don’t like? Trump needs to issue an executive order about the 2A. I hate going that route but we’re no longer a nation following a constitution nor does any legislative body even think about it.

Special thanks to Toby and everyone who contributed to the effort.

You’re all for it now, but what happens when they use that power for something you don’t want? Process is a restraint on power, and without it we get tyranny.

That said, it would be nice if it moved faster.

 

[dhuze]

Setting this petition thing aside for a minute, is “doing something” that accomplishes nothing (or less than nothing) better than doing nothing in the first place?

Are you going to stay home and not vote on Tuesday? Your vote will do nothing.

 

[not new guy]

Are you going to stay home and not vote on Tuesday? Your vote will do nothing.

That's not true at all. There's stuff on the ballot other than Trump v. Kamunism.