Train like you fight

[dwarven1]

Saw this post this morning on a blog I read. Tamara makes a VERY good point.


Train like you fight

How come when you attend a high-level handgun course, half everybody is using full-size pistols in offset holsters with double and triple mag carriers, but when they leave, all that crap goes back in the range bag and they revert to a Kel-Tec in the pocket of their khakis or a J-frame in their purse?

Similarly, if you take a shotgun or carbine course, the students are slathered in MOLLE-encrusted plate carriers and dump pouches like they're getting ready to retake Fallujah, rather than wearing a bathrobe and slippers, or pyjamas and bare feet, like they would be if they were repelling boarders from the bedroom at 0300 hours.

 

[Admin]

FIFY

Similarly, if you take a shotgun or carbine course, the students are slathered in MOLLE-encrusted plate carriers and dump pouches like they're getting ready to retake Washington

I train to fight, period.

 

[Big_Red]

Saw this post this morning on a blog I read. Tamara makes a VERY good point.


Train like you fight

You linky is broken (one too many http://). I fixed it for you.

As far as training goes, I shoot what I carry. I've been to two IDPA matches and shot my Officer's 1911 because that is what I carry. At some point I will also shoot my Sig 239 because that is my other primary carry gun. I use the same holster for IDPA as I do for the daily carry. These may be disadvantages when I shoot in competition but that's my choice.

 

[bfm]

In most of the martial arts I have studied in the past 15 years or so, we mostly sparred in our street clothes. If you can't do it in jeans and sneakers, best to know that before hand. Same reason I went to the Apple Seed shoot despite the weather. I will probably not get to choose when I will need those skills. Most of the pistol training I have done was with midsized pistols that I actually own/carry. When I have taken carbine classes, I normally use an Eagle Active Shooter bag for spare mags as this is what hangs in the safe next to my rifle. I do not own a chest rig.

Here is a question, who keeps hearing protection next to their bed with their firearm? A good electronic pair will help you tell the difference between a window broken by a fallen tree vs one broken by the guy now climbing through it and protect your hearing when the shooting starts.

 

[dwarven1]

You linky is broken (one too many http://). I fixed it for you.

As far as training goes, I shoot what I carry. I've been to two IDPA matches and show my Officer's 1911 because that is what I carry. At some point I will also shoot my Sig 239 because that is my other primary carry gun. I use the same holster for IDPA as I do for the daily carry. These may be disadvantages when I shoot in competition but that's my choice.

Repaired the link. Thanks.

I posted this because I thought that she makes a GREAT point. Seriously - go to an IDPA match and ask the folks there if they're shooting their carry gun and using their carry rig. I'd guess about 75% will say no. (I know - IDPA isn't training. But I thought it was started so folks could just use their carry guns for competition. I could well be wrong).

I wish I'd thought to ask this of the shooters at Mansfield a couple of years ago when Jim Conway and NEShooters ran their free workshop.

 

[dwarven1]

Here is a question, who keeps hearing protection next to their bed with their firearm? A good electronic pair will help you tell the difference between a window broken by a fallen tree vs one broken by the guy now climbing through it and protect your hearing when the shooting starts.

You raise an EXCELLENT question here. I have to admit, I don't. Just wondering... do you?

 

[Big_Red]

You raise an EXCELLENT question here. I have to admit, I don't. Just wondering... do you?

I don't either.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Here is a question, who keeps hearing protection next to their bed with their firearm? A good electronic pair will help you tell the difference between a window broken by a fallen tree vs one broken by the guy now climbing through it and protect your hearing when the shooting starts.

This is a good idea, but how practical? I mean we are talking about realism here. I am sure in a time is life scenario most would have a hard time finding the light switch never mind the flash light rolling around next to the gun, in my case putting my glasses on, and then don hearing protection? I don't recommend shooting with out ear pro, but I have done it a few times so I know what is coming if I need too.

 

[dwarven1]

I am sure in a time is life scenario most would have a hard time finding the light switch never mind the flash light rolling around next to the gun, in my case putting my glasses on, and then don hearing protection?

Really? I know EXACTLY where my glasses, the flashlight, the light switch and my gun are in the dark - they're always in the same place. Bedside table has a lamp and a phone, and the flashlight is always next to the phone... and the glasses are always in front of the phone. I put them in the same spot every night. Gun is always in the same place, too.

 

[ScottS]

Repaired the link. Thanks.

I posted this because I thought that she makes a GREAT point. Seriously - go to an IDPA match and ask the folks there if they're shooting their carry gun and using their carry rig. I'd guess about 75% will say no. (I know - IDPA isn't training. But I thought it was started so folks could just use their carry guns for competition. I could well be wrong).

IDPA's a game. I shoot the gun which will give the most competitive advantage while still being rulebook compliant.

That said, I usually try to shoot one club match each year with my carry gun, just to make sure I can manipulate the controls, etc. If I was at a training course, for which I was paying good money, I'm going to shoot a gun that allows me to get the maximum training for the dollar, and that's usually not a J-frame Smith. Most carry guns, IMO, are not designed to comfortably shoot at 500+ round course across two days. That is not a fault of the gun, just reality. If I'm into my third mag with my carry gun, I'm at the end of a long line of bad decisions.

 

[SeanT]

IDPA's a game. I shoot the gun which will give the most competitive advantage while still being rulebook compliant.

That said, I usually try to shoot one club match each year with my carry gun, just to make sure I can manipulate the controls, etc. If I was at a training course, for which I was paying good money, I'm going to shoot a gun that allows me to get the maximum training for the dollar, and that's usually not a J-frame Smith. Most carry guns, IMO, are not designed to comfortably shoot at 500+ round course across two days. That is not a fault of the gun, just reality. If I'm into my third mag with my carry gun, I'm at the end of a long line of bad decisions.

Scott makes a couple of good points here. I think a lot of it depends on what you're hoping to get out of that high-level handgun course mentioned in the OP or in IDPA. Are you trying to practice responding to real life scenarios you might be in or do a game/hypothetical exercise? Choose your gun accordingly.

 

[Bob P]

Repaired the link. Thanks.

I posted this because I thought that she makes a GREAT point. Seriously - go to an IDPA match and ask the folks there if they're shooting their carry gun and using their carry rig. I'd guess about 75% will say no.

Ross, I'm not trying to be an ass with this, but how does this square with the the Liberty Training Rifle concept?

 

[lord1234]

If someone did a "wake up from dead sleep and shoot something in bathrobe" class, i'd be on it like white on rice.

 

[Palladin]

When PPC was originally formed in the late 60's..it was for LEO's with duty weapons...period.

Now look what it's morphed into ?

 

[ochmude]

The Marine Corps ran into this problem at the beginning of OIF. TECOM found that Marines could consistently hit the black at the 500 yard slow fire from the prone while wearing just a blouse, but seemed to struggle at just 100 yards once they donned a flak and kevlar. Since then there has been a dramatic overhaul of USMC marksmanship training to try and move away from the competition style of qualification and toward something that has actual, real life training value.

 

[bfm]

You raise an EXCELLENT question here. I have to admit, I don't. Just wondering... do you?

Nest tot the bed are a Surefire G2Z, a fixed blade, and a set of electronic muffs. First time I hear a bump, the hearing goes on and the light goes into my hand. Then I decide wether or not to open the safe.

The first instructor I had at the SIG academy years back mentioned that he put on the muffs and turned the volume way up before grabbing his pistol. It let him start to figure out if the noise was a threat or not with out giving away that he had heard or was awake yet.

 

[bfm]

On another note, though they have changed the curriculum a bit, the week long SIG class for concealed carry ended with two days of scenarios with simunition. Every one got several chances to be aggressor and defender in situations set up by the instructers. From walking to your car in a dark garage to the bump in the night type stuff. The AMOK and Systema I have taken also worked on possible real life attacks in a variety of flavors and how to deal with them. Spent a lot of time working on accessing and retaining weapons while under attack. We offten used airsoft pistols so we could work through till a hit was scored. As with the Apple Seed training repetition is a big part of it. Keep doing it till you get it right then keep doing it to keep it from getting rusty.

 

[ScottS]

If someone did a "wake up from dead sleep and shoot something in bathrobe" class, i'd be on it like white on rice.

I would want to see a class roster, first.

 

[jar]

(I know - IDPA isn't training. But I thought it was started so folks could just use their carry guns for competition. I could well be wrong).

Yes and no. The cynical answer is IDPA was started so Bill Wilson could sell more custom 1911s. The realistic answer is that IDPA was started so people could be competitive with off the shelf guns. At the time, IPSC had moved heavily toward race guns. Since then, IPSC/USPSA has added divisions where stock guns can be competitive, possibly as a response to competition from IDPA.

IDPA's a game. I shoot the gun which will give the most competitive advantage while still being rulebook compliant.

This. Once you start keeping score, people will do everything they can to win. I shoot IDPA with the full size version of my compact carry gun. (M&P 9Pro, M&P 9c) I find that's the best blend of being competitive with getting max value from my practice. This seems to be very common, I know several shooters who compete with a Glock 34 and carry a 19 or 26.

Spent a lot of time working on accessing and retaining weapons while under attack. We offten used airsoft pistols so we could work through till a hit was scored.

This is by far the most under trained area in defensive shooting. People view the gun as the solution to the problem, but it's only a piece. Getting the gun it to the fight when it happens fast and close is really hard if you haven't trained it.

 

[FPrice]

Here is a question, who keeps hearing protection next to their bed with their firearm? A good electronic pair will help you tell the difference between a window broken by a fallen tree vs one broken by the guy now climbing through it and protect your hearing when the shooting starts.

I just started doing that myself.

 

[Twigg]

.....

 

[dwarven1]

Ross, I'm not trying to be an ass with this, but how does this square with the the Liberty Training Rifle concept?

I would have to say that unless your battle rifle is a Ruger .44 Mag Carbine or your LTR is a M&P15-22, this doesn't hold with it.

However... I'll defend the LTR concept by saying that since rifle ammo is so much more expensive than pistol ammo, it's easier to understand using it. Appleseed isn't a combat course; it's a marksmanship course. Once you have your rifleman skills down, you can then practice with your battle rifle.

At the same time, though, you'll see a lot of people using a .22 version of their combat pistol - Glocks and 1911s with .22 conversion kits, folks with K-frames carrying a Model 19 and training with a 617, or a Mod 637 and a Mod 34.

I'd say that for learning the basics, the LTR still holds up. But I'd add practice with your battle rifle after you get the basics down.

 

[Bob P]

I would have to say that unless your battle rifle is a Ruger .44 Mag Carbine or your LTR is a M&P15-22, this doesn't hold with it.

However... I'll defend the LTR concept by saying that since rifle ammo is so much more expensive than pistol ammo, it's easier to understand using it. Appleseed isn't a combat course; it's a marksmanship course. Once you have your rifleman skills down, you can then practice with your battle rifle.

At the same time, though, you'll see a lot of people using a .22 version of their combat pistol - Glocks and 1911s with .22 conversion kits, folks with K-frames carrying a Model 19 and training with a 617, or a Mod 637 and a Mod 34.

I'd say that for learning the basics, the LTR still holds up. But I'd add practice with your battle rifle after you get the basics down.

Fair enough answer, but for that matter IDPA isn't combat training either. It's a game. It provides some practice in firing while moving, drawing your pistol from a holster etc etc but it's not combat training. So, neither Appleseed nor IDPA are combat training but both are useful and can provide the participant with some basic skills.

 

[Chris]

Back to the original point...

You find people shooting certain guns and using certain equipment in range exercises (course, IDPA, etc) that are not used day to day. This is fine for general practice and instruction as it's usually safer than the average carry rig which is more geared to concealment and all day comfort than ease of access. In fact, I'd hate to see someone trying to reholster IWB several hundred times during a course.

That said, practice with your carry gear is vital to transfer the skills to a different presentation and operating system. Learning how to draw, engage and survive a street battle with your gear on your belt is completely different to doing it with your gear IWB, in a Smart Carry, or other concealed positions. Even a different outfit alters the access. After you go home from one of these courses, it is up to the student to transfer the skills to the daily gear and practice. What worked on the range with your 1911 might be completely different with your 442 in your chinos.

When it comes to rifle, the skills of marksmanship don't change, but your fit to the rifle will alter with the gun, clothing, and even weather. One needs to make the effort to see how those factors matter.

In short - Learn and drill with what is comfortable to acquire the skills. But then don't forget to do the due diligence to apply those skills to specific situations you are more likely to encounter. You don't need to bring the bathrobe to the range, but there is no reason not to bring the range exercise home and try it in the bathrobe. (dry fire only please)

 

[Bob P]

Back to the original point...

You find people shooting certain guns and using certain equipment in range exercises (course, IDPA, etc) that are not used day to day. This is fine for general practice and instruction as it's usually safer than the average carry rig which is more geared to concealment and all day comfort than ease of access. In fact, I'd hate to see someone trying to reholster IWB several hundred times during a course.

That said, practice with your carry gear is vital to transfer the skills to a different presentation and operating system. Learning how to draw, engage and survive a street battle with your gear on your belt is completely different to doing it with your gear IWB, in a Smart Carry, or other concealed positions. Even a different outfit alters the access. After you go home from one of these courses, it is up to the student to transfer the skills to the daily gear and practice. What worked on the range with your 1911 might be completely different with your 442 in your chinos.

When it comes to rifle, the skills of marksmanship don't change, but your fit to the rifle will alter with the gun, clothing, and even weather. One needs to make the effort to see how those factors matter.

In short - Learn and drill with what is comfortable to acquire the skills. But then don't forget to do the due diligence to apply those skills to specific situations you are more likely to encounter. You don't need to bring the bathrobe to the range, but there is no reason not to bring the range exercise home and try it in the bathrobe. (dry fire only please)

Excellent summation.

 

[bfm]

This is by far the most under trained area in defensive shooting. People view the gun as the solution to the problem, but it's only a piece. Getting the gun it to the fight when it happens fast and close is really hard if you haven't trained it.

Yeah, when you have one or two people charging you with training knives while you are trying to access and draw from concealment it takes a while to get good at it. And for anyone who says a "training knife" is not a realistic enough motvie, we often left class bleeding from hits with those things. I have had four dislocated fingers one dislocated elbow (I do not recomend this, the subluxed tendon after reduction caused me problems for months). This was mostly with the AMOK! training.

I highly recomend Systema training to anyone in the Boston area. I need to get back into it myself. The training was hard, but a bit less painful than the AMOK!.
I am in no way affiliated other than to have taken courses with Arthur in the past. http://www.russianmartialart.org/

 

[crak]

I have some guesses for why the whole LTR thing turned into the giant beast it did but they're not important. Appleseed actually did start out with dozens of centerfire rifles on every line right before the ammo price tripled (or worse). The LTR idea was to get a .22 rifle with the same feel and sights as your centerfire rifle so you didn't have to spend a fortune in ammo to get the basics down. If your main rifle is an AR instead of an M1/M1A your "LTR" should be an .22 upper. Dry fire is a free but less fun alternative.

Something Appleseed weekends imply but don't stress enough, probably, is that shooting 4MOA groups in the right spot is only a beginning that makes it possible to do the rest of the homework on your own. (And the LTR stays in the closet for all of this stuff. Its job is finished.) Keeping out flinch/buck/jerk/blink is probably a lifetime battle. Every ammo/rifle combo has to have the ballistics worked out and verified out to and beyond 500m. And even with all that firing the shot is the easiest part. Range/Wind estimation? Target detection?

We have week-long courses around at 500 yard+ ranges (not so much in New England though... we'll work on that) that go into all of the issues the weekend courses consider homework, and you do need your centerfire rifle for those. But putting 4MOA groups in the right place never goes out of style no matter who you get a more advanced course from (and there are a lot of great ones out there)

 

[Jaxon]

If someone did a "wake up from dead sleep and shoot something in bathrobe" class, i'd be on it like white on rice.

Providing one actually HAS a robe.

I shot IDPA for a couple of years with my carry G27. Unfortunately, as others have said, shooting your carry gun isn't the trend and people game the system. And the G27 isn't a winning setup, even with the minor tweaks it got. Guess I'm a purist, but even that was off as I pocket carry all of the time. And I have yet to see a course for that.

As for waking up in the middle of the night, that's easy. I set everything the same every night. And the lighting from the outside is enough to make out targets.

 

[op4guy]

I 100% believe in train as you fight. I don't know about in the NE but out here in WA we have courses that can be attended though groups like LMS that teach low-light scenarios as well as many other things.

Personally I carry a G19 though that is not my home defense weapon. My primary home defense weapon is my AR. I don't keep ear pro near my bed as it's one step I don't need if it comes down to it.

If you have never shot without hearing pro outdoors you will be amazed how loud it really is. Now try it indoors and it is magnified 10 fold- try it from a vehicle and it will take the breath from you. That said it boils down to training and focus. Remember if you fire a shot in the direction of someone inside the home they are getting a lot more of the blast noise and flash then you are. If I had the choice between putting on hearing pro or eye pro I would take the eye pro first. If you can't hear you can still asses a situation, recognize a threat, sight in and shoot. If you can't see then you can't fight.

Your ears will adjust pretty darn quick and shut down for the most part but you will still be able to hear some noises. When you look at cops you don't see them walking around with ear pro in at all times yet many of them will wear something to protect their eyes. It's about protecting the senses that will keep you in the fight all the way through to the win.

As stated in the top of my post, I don't use my G19 as the primary HD weapon. There are a lot of reasons but I will say the biggest is what the gun can do. It's solid, has the light on it, holds more rounds, more power with quicker follow-up shots and if it runs out of ammo I have a mega expensive club to beat the living hell out of someone with.

Remember if you get into a gun fight in your home at 3am you want the most reliable and efficient platform you can have. You have the rest of your life to win that gun fight..

 

[GSG]

Same reason I went to the Apple Seed shoot despite the weather.

I've shot my guns in every kind of weather you can imagine, heavy rain/snow, hot & humid, low light, no light, bright noon sun, bugs buzzing in my face...I made it a point to be able to shoot well under any weather conditions.

Here is a question, who keeps hearing protection next to their bed with their firearm? A good electronic pair will help you tell the difference between a window broken by a fallen tree vs one broken by the guy now climbing through it and protect your hearing when the shooting starts.

I don't, and can't think of a reason to. Auditory exclusion is very common in gunfights, and you need to be able to hear what's going on around you. I won't trust an electronic filter to know what I'm hearing in a life or death situation, and electronic muffs do fail. I've never even heard this suggested before, none of the real life gunfighters that I know do so.

I don't recommend shooting with out ear pro, but I have done it a few times so I know what is coming if I need too.

Yup.

Most carry guns, IMO, are not designed to comfortably shoot at 500+ round course across two days. That is not a fault of the gun, just reality.

I think it's the fault of the people carrying them, when it comes right down to it. Other than in situations where dress code or other circumstances simply don't allow a big pistol to be carried, "no excuses" guns are usually based on excuses, not reality. Something is better than nothing, but with the right belt & holster it's not that hard to carry a serious pistol & accompanying ammo if you set your mind to it. It was in the 90's today here in sunny Florida, I was wearing a T-shirt & shorts but still very well armed, as usual.

If I'm into my third mag with my carry gun, I'm at the end of a long line of bad decisions.

Wait a sec, in this thread you said that you only carried the mag in the gun and a single spare drum magazine. What's this "3rd mag" talk?

I know we've disagreed on this topic before, but it's important to remember that a lot of gunfights involving handguns make it through multiple reloads. There's some old(er) info on this here at this link, but there's even more real-world instances where this happens that haven't made it to the online gun community for whatever reason. Handguns are underpowered, and if someone is attacking you to the point where your life is in danger, you need to be able to fight your way out of it, all the way out of it...it's very unlikely that someone will make a half-assed attempt on your life.

Now look what it's morphed into ?

Basically LARPing

This is by far the most under trained area in defensive shooting. People view the gun as the solution to the problem, but it's only a piece. Getting the gun it to the fight when it happens fast and close is really hard if you haven't trained it.

Plus being able to operate it correctly while fighting up close (angling the gun so your body doesn't prevent the slide from cycling, not thrusting the gun towards the attacker like it's a knife, one handed reholstering, weapon retention, and more).

Fair enough answer, but for that matter IDPA isn't combat training either. It's a game. It provides some practice in firing while moving, drawing your pistol from a holster etc etc but it's not combat training.

I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, but many people don't realize this; all over the Internet there's folks talking about "All the training I've gotten from IPSC/IDPA/etc."

You find people shooting certain guns and using certain equipment in range exercises (course, IDPA, etc) that are not used day to day. This is fine for general practice and instruction as it's usually safer than the average carry rig which is more geared to concealment and all day comfort than ease of access. In fact, I'd hate to see someone trying to reholster IWB several hundred times during a course.

Really? With a quality setup it's not that big of a deal.