Train like you fight

[ScottS]

I know we've disagreed on this topic before, but it's important to remember that a lot of gunfights involving handguns make it through multiple reloads. There's some old(er) info on this here at this link, but there's even more real-world instances where this happens that haven't made it to the online gun community for whatever reason. Handguns are underpowered, and if someone is attacking you to the point where your life is in danger, you need to be able to fight your way out of it, all the way out of it...it's very unlikely that someone will make a half-assed attempt on your life.

In fairness, that link discusses police-involved shootings and high rounds counts. I would argue that non-LEO CCW carriers have a different priority than LEO's, and with regard to the linked encounters, non-LEO's would have either 1) not found themselves in that situation (trying to apprehend a violent, armed felon); or 2) would have been working to extract themselves from the situation rather than getting deeper into it.

I typically think of a CCW as a tool to immediately save my life/the life of my loved ones, and as an aid to help me extract myself from a bad situation, not advance into one. There are very few scenarios I can come up with where my immediate goal is not exfil, other than, say, if terrorists take over the Nakatomi Plaza and my wife is working there, but how often does that happen?

Don't get me wrong, ammo is a good thing. A two-shot derringer? Not enough. Crossed bandoleers across my chest? Too much. I'm looking for something in between.

 

[MJM]

I don't, and can't think of a reason to. Auditory exclusion is very common in gunfights, and you need to be able to hear what's going on around you. I won't trust an electronic filter to know what I'm hearing in a life or death situation, and electronic muffs do fail. I've never even heard this suggested before, none of the real life gunfighters that I know do so.

i cant condone the hearing protection during one of these incidents either, but i do believe Massad Ayoob does advise the use of electronic muffs in home defense. Last thing you want is to forget to turn the muffs on or batteries to die. just my $0.02

 

[Mike-Mike]

I somewhat agree and disagree with this. Agree to the extent that you should try "real world" aspects of all training.

But let looks at another side.

lets use martial arts analogy,

if i am all stretched out in the do jang I might practice:

Jump back kick - This is so my regular back kick might come out fairly easy in a not so comfortable situation.
Flying Side kick- This is so my regular side kick will be a breeze.

So if you are all Tac'd out at the range and practice very advanced drills. the regular drills might work fine the day you need them.

 

[RI_John]

I've always been very interested in taking this course:

http://www.rmcat.com/?page_id=13

Adrenal stress based shoot/don't shoot scenarios with rubber bullets. I took a similar course (without the guns)- adrenal stress full contact self defense, and it was really good. It's the closest thing to a real fight as you can get without being in a real fight. Once you get the adrenalin dump, all fine motor skills go out the window. I would really like to see what that's like with a handgun. I'm sure combat vets and LEOs that have been in gunfights know what's what and what it's really like when the "chemical cocktail" hits-- that's the way I'd like to train.

I don't know of any courses like the link I posted on the East coast though, not that they don't exist, I just don't know about them.

 

[jar]

I don't know of any courses like the link I posted on the East coast though, not that they don't exist, I just don't know about them.

Southnarc will be in Pelham, NH for three days of training in June. I've taken his class twice, and I'll be back again.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/84401-Video-from-the-Southnarc-class-2009

 

[oldsoldier29]

I have been indoors while firing without hearing pro-NOT recommended. The first time, everytime (especially when not expecting it), it dazzles you. Then you pretty much dont hear anything. Not something you can really train for, but at least KNOWING it will happen helps. I hope none of us here ever have to go through this scenario, and this will remain a "what if" situation.

 

[Andy in NH]

...electronic muffs do fail.

Anything can fail; guns, lights, cell phones, etc. I don't believe that is a good reason not to take advantage of their capabilities.

...none of the real life gunfighters that I know do so.

These guys don't seem to have an issue protecting their hearing with electronic muffs; or integrating their radios with such...

 

[GSG]

Remember if you get into a gun fight in your home at 3am you want the most reliable and efficient platform you can have. You have the rest of your life to win that gun fight..

Amen to that.

In fairness, that link discusses police-involved shootings and high rounds counts. I would argue that non-LEO CCW carriers have a different priority than LEO's, and with regard to the linked encounters, non-LEO's would have either 1) not found themselves in that situation (trying to apprehend a violent, armed felon); or 2) would have been working to extract themselves from the situation rather than getting deeper into it.

I agree with you that cops & civilians generally carry to meet different tasks, but police shootings are the only kind of shootings in the US that are regularly studied and closely examined. Most civilian shootings barely make the news, and even the ones that do rarely include many details. Occasionally gunwriters will take an in depth look at a civilian shooting like with Gary Fadden, Harry Beckwith or others, but for the most part, what we know about defensive handgun shooting in the US comes from cops.

But if your life is put in danger by a violent felon, your life is in danger. If someone is breaking into your home, trying to carjack you, anything like that, you're in it with them until they (and all their friends) stop. No, you're not pulling over cars or kicking in doors, but when the guns come out, it's all the same, you're both shooting until they stop. People without drugs in their system can absorb some amazing injuries and continue fighting, with drugs it gets even more amazing.

There are very few scenarios I can come up with where my immediate goal is not exfil, other than, say, if terrorists take over the Nakatomi Plaza and my wife is working there, but how often does that happen?

Often enough for 3 sequels and a videogame.

i cant condone the hearing protection during one of these incidents either, but i do believe Massad Ayoob does advise the use of electronic muffs in home defense. Last thing you want is to forget to turn the muffs on or batteries to die. just my $0.02

If you clicked the link that I posted above, you'll also see that Massad Ayoob suggests that you keep a copy of the gun porn his article was printed in to demonstrate your "knowledge."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/574859/posts

Do not lose this issue of this magazine. The fact that you have read these things beforehand creates a pre-existing knowledge of dynamics of violent encounters. This knowledge can, and should be, discoverable evidence if a shyster who can't make a living with honest cases, sues you for shooting in self-defense a criminal predator, and doing so with a gun that fires more than five or six shots without a reload.

I remember the first time that I was cross examined in court regarding my use of force, and how hard the defense attorney worked to make me look like an idiot. Oh boy, waving an American Handgunner around to justify my actions...that sh*t wouldn't fly, let me tell you. Ayoob has a lot of good info in general, but yeah, he and I disagree on a few matters.

Anything can fail; guns, lights, cell phones, etc. I don't believe that is a good reason not to take advantage of their capabilities.

I can hear everything I need to in my house just fine on my own, even in the middle of the night. The last time I had an adrenaline dump while my ears were ringing from up close & personal gunfire I could still hear very well, despite the pain. I'm not going to trust my life to an electronic contraption over my ears that alters sounds and sound levels in a gunfight or other violent encounter. If there's a problem with those muffs it might block a noise that I would otherwise hear, or might amplify an already loud noise and take out my hearing altogether. Depending on the layout of a house and the acoustics of the room, a gunshot can seem very loud, or not very loud at all. This will further be changed by how your perceptions and senses are altered during an adrenaline dump, which happens differently every time, and that's assuming you go through the dump at all. Every encounter is different, but I like sure things, and electronic muffs aren't IMO.

These guys don't seem to have an issue protecting their hearing with electronic muffs; or integrating their radios with such...

Those guys are also using graphite lubricant in their guns & FMJ ammo in their magazines, but that's not what I'm using in my guns. It's a different ballgame when you're raiding houses every night with a SAW in your hands, a radio to listen to a team of guys shooting alongside you. But still, not all soldiers use those, I know Iraq war vets who were at the dirty end of the stick all the time who didn't, who also didn't use weapon mounted lights, which is a whole other can of worms.

 

[op4guy]

I have been indoors while firing without hearing pro-NOT recommended. The first time, everytime (especially when not expecting it), it dazzles you.

The shooting you (and most) have done has been static and training. Get into a gun fight indoors and it becomes a different world. Minds focus, things get blocked out and the eye ends up on the prize.

These guys don't seem to have an issue protecting their hearing with electronic muffs; or integrating their radios with such...

Totally different then something going bump in the night. These guys ARE what goes bump in the night.

Granted i know pretty much nobody on this board except for oldsoldier-he is my brother so i guess it's safe to say we are pretty tight. This is my experiences only but I can tell you shooting in a house is like an explosion you have not heard. Run a bunch of guys though a shoot house running short rifles with brakes and throwing flash bangs and it's enough to make you think the world is ending.

Now do all of this for real. Not shooting for training but straight up the fight of your life. I can't tell you how each person will be but for me the world slows down and things get focused. Things I found bothered me before didn't make the difference. Your body goes into survival mode and makes it work.

Again nobody here knows me except oldsoldier but I will tell you I have done my time in house to house fighting. I spent time doing it in Najaf in 2004 fighting through houses and the worlds largest cemetery. After that I turned around and did it in Fallujah retaking that damn city. Every person experiences it differently and for me it was very slow, focused and surreal.

 

[economist]

Train like you fight

A few years ago I was in a somewhat advanced class that unexpectedly also included some law enforcement guys. Some said they were SWAT, and had the gear to back it up. Another was a lieutenant somewhere in New Hampshire. The SWAT guys were pretty nice. But as I was loading mags for my Sig P239, LT comes over and says something like, "whats up with those little mags". I say that I carry this gun (I did at the time) and want to practice with it. Mr. personality then says, "well, you better not slow us down, I want to get out of here as soon as possible". I said that if I could open carry a glock 40 like he was doing it wouldn't be an issue. He followed with saying that he wouldn't have come at all if he knew "civilians" were going to be in the class. Fun guy.

 

[Flyer007]

FIFY

Similarly, if you take a shotgun or carbine course, the students are slathered in MOLLE-encrusted plate carriers and dump pouches like they're getting ready to retake Washington

I train to fight, period.

AMEN to that derek

Train with carry pistol for CCW encounters

Carbine and backup pistol for SHTF........I really don't see myself clearing house at 3am with carbine over the pistol or shotty

 

[MJM]

A few years ago I was in a somewhat advanced class that unexpectedly also included some law enforcement guys. Some said they were SWAT, and had the gear to back it up. Another was a lieutenant somewhere in New Hampshire. The SWAT guys were pretty nice. But as I was loading mags for my Sig P239, LT comes over and says something like, "whats up with those little mags". I say that I carry this gun (I did at the time) and want to practice with it. Mr. personality then says, "well, you better not slow us down, I want to get out of here as soon as possible". I said that if I could open carry a glock 40 like he was doing it wouldn't be an issue. He followed with saying that he wouldn't have come at all if he knew "civilians" were going to be in the class. Fun guy.

love those guys . similar experience with SWAT guy and "civilian" comments. He, however quickly lost his chip after seeing he wasnt the only one that could shoot and when all was said and done was not the most accurate nor fastest. He also had a fair amount of "personal" instruction on CQB for during the CQB course he was the only one who continued to "punch out" at a target less than 6inches away destroying each target with muzzle blast. He was quite proud of his destroyed target until it was used for the class as a "what not to do" example. Oh well

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

You raise an EXCELLENT question here. I have to admit, I don't. Just wondering... do you?

***set out ear protection with your home defense firearm***

We can plan all we want, but when the SHTF all that goes out the window as the bad guy is climbing through it. Personally I would rather focus my attention on what I need to do to save my life and protect my family than look for my muffs. It would be all I could do to productively channel my adrenaline to function defensively in a moment like that. I can guarantee 75% of folks would forget all about the ear protection they set aside for such a moment. Additionally I would not want to go hand to hand encumbered with ear protection on my head or in my ears. Personal opinion only. Novel idea though...for a perfect world. But I guess in a perfect world someone wouldn't be in my home trying to hurt me.

 

[Dench]

This brings up a interesting theme that was heavily used while I was in the Army.

The "Train as you fight" mindset is excellent, but some people miss the point. If I ever got into a gun fight, or was back in the Army, I have to be prepared to not only be able to use my weapon effectivly, but also be able to use my body effectivly. I often hear about people in matches, whether it's rifle or pistol, that are training for self defense who are drasticly out of shape.

What good is it to be way out of shape in a situation that is already way out of control? I know Jar takes some close in hand to hand fighting classes, which I think is great. But, I think Jar is in the huge minority when it comes to being more then a one dimensional fighter.

Some people I see barly have enough strength to lift up the cheeseburger they are trying to stuff into their mouth, never mind do anything physical in a fight. Guns cant magically get everyone out of a dangerous situation. Sometimes you need your fists and sometimes you need your feet to get the hell away. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I like cheeseburgers.

 

[ochmude]

This brings up a interesting theme that was heavily used while I was in the Army.

The "Train as you fight" mindset is excellent, but some people miss the point. If I ever got into a gun fight, or was back in the Army, I have to be prepared to not only be able to use my weapon effectivly, but also be able to use my body effectivly. I often hear about people in matches, whether it's rifle or pistol, that are training for self defense who are drasticly out of shape.

What good is it to be way out of shape in a situation that is already way out of control? I know Jar takes some close in hand to hand fighting classes, which I think is great. But, I think Jar is in the huge minority when it comes to being more then a one dimensional fighter.

Some people I see barly have enough strength to lift up the cheeseburger they are trying to stuff into their mouth, never mind do anything physical in a fight. Guns cant magically get everyone out of a dangerous situation. Sometimes you need your fists and sometimes you need your feet to get the hell away. Just my 2 cents.

 

[P2A]

This brings up a interesting theme that was heavily used while I was in the Army.

The "Train as you fight" mindset is excellent, but some people miss the point. If I ever got into a gun fight, or was back in the Army, I have to be prepared to not only be able to use my weapon effectivly, but also be able to use my body effectivly. I often hear about people in matches, whether it's rifle or pistol, that are training for self defense who are drasticly out of shape.

What good is it to be way out of shape in a situation that is already way out of control? I know Jar takes some close in hand to hand fighting classes, which I think is great. But, I think Jar is in the huge minority when it comes to being more then a one dimensional fighter.

Some people I see barly have enough strength to lift up the cheeseburger they are trying to stuff into their mouth, never mind do anything physical in a fight. Guns cant magically get everyone out of a dangerous situation. Sometimes you need your fists and sometimes you need your feet to get the hell away. Just my 2 cents.

Dench, Im sure you remember the preferred BMI of our NES "experts" is a MINIMUM of 47%.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Dench, Im sure you remember the preferred BMI of our NES "experts" is a MINIMUM of 47%.

Hey I read that somewhere, so that means I can eat all the cheeseburgers I want right?

 

[bfm]

Hearing protection may be the last thing I reach for if someone were actually coming through my bedroom window (neat trick ont he second floor, but they might have brought their own ladder) but for the "hey what was that bump downstairs?" it is the first thing I reach for floowed by the flash light. Of course a lot of things depend on your specific situation. Do you have pets, kids, especially one who tries new and interesting ways to break curfew? If it is just you and maybe someone who is obviously still in bed next to you, any noise obviously not made by the two of you is a more clear sign of danger. If you have a dog that barks every time a squirrel runs across the deck, a set of muffs that allow you to amplify the sound to see if you hear someone going "sshhh... good dog" will help you better decide the threat level before you head downstairs. Is it for every situation, no. Is it a useful addition to the tools that help you react, yes. I would put the flashlight ahead of it as a necessity but I am not getting rid of mine any time soon. Also, like anything else related to the defense of your life, it is worth doing right. If you are going to get a set, get one of the top name brands.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Welcome to the THUNDER DOME!

 

[Dench]

Appleseed Cage Match

o, rly?