Training Advice P229 (help...)

[Gordon0652]

Hi Everyone,

A little over a month ago I purchased a used Sig P229 in .40, the handgun feels great and has a nice weight to it.
Since the purchase I have put around 650-700 rounds through it and I am constantly shooting left, and it is a mixture of upper left and lower left. I am right handed and my dominate eye is right.
At 50' I need to aim 2-3" right of the center and at 21' I need to aim 1-2.5" right of the center. I am consistent, grouping is a tennis ball at 50' but not center.
I have had two other individuals shoot the handgun and they do fine, half dollar at 21', therefore the problem is me.
Today I installed the TLR-4 for the laser to see if my sight picture is the problem and it is not. I set a gopro near the target to read the laser while I shoot to see the issue and unfortunately the gopro does not see the laser movement while shooting.

I am looking for advice or input. I would be more than happy to take a video at the range or photos of my grip. I have a Shield 9mm with a trigger job and I have no problem grouping with that handgun and the same with my friends G19.


I sincerely appreciate your time. Thank You,
Ken

 

[Doogz]

When I started shooting .40, I had problems grouping. What helped me was buying some snap caps and loading mags 50/50, snaps/live rounds. I mix them in a pile, close my eyes and sing a song while loading, otherwise I remember the order. When a snap chambered and I pulled the trigger, I noticed I was flinching, causing rounds to down/left. A few range days of doing this setup and I was shooting as good as a 9.

Hope this helps.

I'm also using a 229 in .40 and it's a great combination. Might be placebo, but putting a S/S guide rod seemed to help muzzle flip. If your pistol has seen some use, replace the recoil spring to help with the snap.

 

[SJan]

1 sight alignment
2 trigger control

If you hold the sights on your target and press the trigger without disturbing the sights, the shot will land on target. If you missed your target, one of those two things did not happen.

This is a pretty good explanation

 

[Doogz]

Now that I think back, 80% live/20% snaps is a better ratio to give you more of a surprise.

 

[Wendell]

If you haven't already, I suggest visiting an optometrist. Take the 229's slide with you. (I think the issue might be with your vision and the pistol's sights.)

If you haven't already, I suggest that you consider trying 'press-outs'; you can practice it with the 'press six' drill.

And, if you haven't already, I suggest that you look at these videos:

 

[HiCap]

I second the snap cap/ live round mixture. just dont check the chamber when you clear the snap cap. Good luck.

 

[steve495]

I'm going to assume you have a traditional DA/SA P229, but you may have a DAK (double action only) trigger. Is the shot placement the same for DA and SA?

Get in to about 4 to 5 yards on cardboard target. I find no reason to shoot from further distances. At this distance, the gun accuracy is less than a half an inch, so you should be able to put rounds right on top of each other. I go from this distance since I know I should be able to put one round right on top of the other.

Sight picture is important of course, but the big thing is going to be trigger control. My suggestion is you're jerking the trigger at the end of the press. You're asking the gun to go of "NOW" and it does, and the "NOW" results in the jerk. The goal is to run the trigger to the rear in a straight line with the bore axis of the gun without any additional movements.

So ... prep the trigger. Then prep the trigger HARDER. Then prep even harder. Can you prep the trigger just a bit more WITHOUT the gun going off? Can you prep a bit harder? The shot will break and should be right where you want it.

Do the same thing again. Prep HARDER.

I strongly suggest the Bump Drill. Works for both DA and SA.



To this day, OpSpec Training instructors will tell you this is one of the best drills out there.

Again, at 4 to 5 yards, you should be placing rounds into the same hole. The SIG - and most other quality pistols - will have that level of accuracy.

Then move back to 7 yards and 10 yards.

 

[Gordon0652]

When I started shooting .40, I had problems grouping. What helped me was buying some snap caps and loading mags 50/50, snaps/live rounds. I mix them in a pile, close my eyes and sing a song while loading, otherwise I remember the order. When a snap chambered and I pulled the trigger, I noticed I was flinching, causing rounds to down/left. A few range days of doing this setup and I was shooting as good as a 9.

Hope this helps.

I'm also using a 229 in .40 and it's a great combination. Might be placebo, but putting a S/S guide rod seemed to help muzzle flip. If your pistol has seen some use, replace the recoil spring to help with the snap.

Now that I think back, 80% live/20% snaps is a better ratio to give you more of a surprise.

Thank you for the rapid response! After reading I ordered 10 snap-caps and will try the blind loading method. I understand how this method will help and I will report back.

Thank You Doogz!

1 sight alignment
2 trigger control

If you hold the sights on your target and press the trigger without disturbing the sights, the shot will land on target. If you missed your target, one of those two things did not happen.

This is a pretty good explanation

Thank you for taking the time to share the video, my guess would be that I am disturbing the sight picture while pulling the trigger.

Much appreciated SJan!

If you haven't already, I suggest visiting an optometrist. Take the 229's slide with you. (I think the issue might be with your vision and the pistol's sights.)

If you haven't already, I suggest that you consider trying 'press-outs'; you can practice it with the 'press six' drill.

And, if you haven't already, I suggest that you look at these videos:

Thank you for sharing the press-out method, I actually never heard of it and after finding a few videos it looks useful! The only thing I am not comfortable with it drawing from a holster but I am sure I can modify that part of the press-out exercise.

Thank You Wendell!

I second the snap cap/ live round mixture. just dont check the chamber when you clear the snap cap. Good luck.

Thank You for responding. I have ordered snap-caps and will try this exercise.

Thank You HiCap!

I'm going to assume you have a traditional DA/SA P229, but you may have a DAK (double action only) trigger. Is the shot placement the same for DA and SA?

Get in to about 4 to 5 yards on cardboard target. I find no reason to shoot from further distances. At this distance, the gun accuracy is less than a half an inch, so you should be able to put rounds right on top of each other. I go from this distance since I know I should be able to put one round right on top of the other.

Sight picture is important of course, but the big thing is going to be trigger control. My suggestion is you're jerking the trigger at the end of the press. You're asking the gun to go of "NOW" and it does, and the "NOW" results in the jerk. The goal is to run the trigger to the rear in a straight line with the bore axis of the gun without any additional movements.

So ... prep the trigger. Then prep the trigger HARDER. Then prep even harder. Can you prep the trigger just a bit more WITHOUT the gun going off? Can you prep a bit harder? The shot will break and should be right where you want it.

Do the same thing again. Prep HARDER.

I strongly suggest the Bump Drill. Works for both DA and SA.

To this day, OpSpec Training instructors will tell you this is one of the best drills out there.

Again, at 4 to 5 yards, you should be placing rounds into the same hole. The SIG - and most other quality pistols - will have that level of accuracy.

Then move back to 7 yards and 10 yards.

Thank you for the detailed response! The range I attend minimum yards is seven (7) because of how the range is built. Maybe late at night I can setup a target closer when no one is there.
The Sig I have is the P229rm which is both DA/SA. Shot placement is very close for both DA/SA but I would argue that the placement is better while shooting DA (not having the hammer pulled back, using the hammer drop after each shot).
The video makes sense and I went on to look at his other videos. I appreciate the response!

Thank You steve495

 

[Gordon0652]

Everyone,

It is very possible that I am jerking the trigger at the end or throughout the pull. During SA (P229) the trigger pull is around .25" and firm after the take-up is removed. The Shield is about 1/16-3/32" and firm (trigger job) after the take-up is removed and I am where I want to be with that handgun. This coming weekend I will try a few of these exercises and will report back.

I sincerely appreciate the quick responses and videos, I was not expecting such friendly individuals.



Respectfully,

Ken


Have a great Thanksgiving.

 

[DPR]

I was (still am a bit) low left w/ my 229. Dry fire practice is what helped me. I do the drill in this video but at shorter distances.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxyTFzgWjhk&t=166s

Also look on youtube for the Sig wall drill and bullet hole drill. You can do the wall drill at home and I think helped me most.

 

[92G]

Dry fire

snap caps

try adjusting position of finger on the trigger, may be putting too little or too much finger

 

[fencer]

Balance a quarter on the end of your barrel. Practice dry fire without the quarter falling off. When you can do it consistently, your trigger pull will be perfect.

Now.... snatch the pebble from my hand...

 

[SJan]

All of the above posts are good. But these techniques usually teach how to press the trigger slowly. It is possible to press even slap the trigger very very fast without moving any other part of your grip or the gun. Do that. Sorry I'm not a good teacher, I don't know how tell you how get to that skill level

 

[usp45ct]

1 sight alignment
2 trigger control

If you hold the sights on your target and press the trigger without disturbing the sights, the shot will land on target. If you missed your target, one of those two things did not happen.

This is a pretty good explanation

nice thanks

 

[steve495]

All of the above posts are good. But these techniques usually teach how to press the trigger slowly. It is possible to press even slap the trigger very very fast without moving any other part of your grip or the gun. Do that. Sorry I'm not a good teacher, I don't know how tell you how get to that skill level

Actually, almost all the fast shooters I know - including Max Michel and fast guys here in New England (Mason Lane) with their Production setups - really do prep the trigger between shots. There are certainly a lot of slappers out there, but they do have TONS of rounds down range over years/decades and have impeccable follow through.

I'm considered average, with occasional flashes of really good, but during multiple shot strings (usually two to three on a target, or less frequently Bill Drills) after the gun goes off, I'm trying to release the trigger and prep HARD during the recoil stroke of the slide, and "letting the gun go off" when the sights are acceptable again. Of course, slow motion video will show I'm not able to get off the trigger and back on by the time the gun is back in battery, but I am using that time available to prep instead of shooting to reset.

The OP specifically mentioned his grouping and accuracy, and not accuracy during quick follow-up shots, so all of this info is going a bit beyond the original question.

We have an exercise where we have students - on a timer - shoot a one shot drill. First with a hard prep, and then a slap. We mix it up and sometimes do it dry then live, or live then dry. When a student sees how much the sights move with a slap compared to a hard prep (when shooting dry fire) frequently a light bulb goes off. We use the timer to let them know when to "let" the shot break. I never use the coin on top of the slide technique anymore, since the sights really do tell us all we need to know when we are hard-focused on that front sight.

On single shot drills from 5 to 7 yards away, my reaction time (.19/.20 compared to .22/.23) is faster and my shots more accurate with a hard prep.

My comments and suggestions on this totally stolen from other instructors...

 

[DPR]

All of the above posts are good. But these techniques usually teach how to press the trigger slowly. It is possible to press even slap the trigger very very fast without moving any other part of your grip or the gun. Do that. Sorry I'm not a good teacher, I don't know how tell you how get to that skill level

These drills expose problems or impose proper technique on your trigger press or grip. Whether you shoot fast or slow they will work. Slapping is altogether different and would be hard to do with a DA/SA 229 starting at 10lb

 

[Supermoto]

1 sight alignment
2 trigger control

If you hold the sights on your target and press the trigger without disturbing the sights, the shot will land on target. If you missed your target, one of those two things did not happen.

This is a pretty good explanation

This
everything else is just parlor tricks. Press, push, roll thru, slap, whack the trigger. It doesn't matter, just hold the sights on target until the shot breaks... it is all mental, nothing physical will make a difference until you wrap your head around that

 

[Gordon0652]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all the responses! Since I did the initial post I have put about 500-600 more rounds down range and my accuracy and gun control is improving vastly. This Saturday I am spending sometime with a experience teacher who teaches the federal law enforcement - I am very excited about this and the knowledge I will pick up.
I'll report back with what has changed and what I found makes the accuracy better. Once a week I do a drill with a mixture of snap caps and live rounds mixed together and have a friend load the mag. This has been helpful because I noticed I am trying to compensate for the recoil, this is still a working progress. One thing that has been taken care of is my grip, it is much more consistent and "proper." I'd be more than happy to take a few photos.

Will keep everyone updated and once again, thank you for taking the time to add to this thread and send me PMs.

Ken

 

[fencer]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet, but I would also recommend you try to find some 165grain ammo as well. 180 grain stuff is everywhere, but I fing the lighter stuff, in a heavy gun like a 229, is not much different than shooting 147 gr -9mm.
A while back I got a good deal on 135 gr Federal premium, so I bought a case. Super soft recoil and I pretty much keep it aside for new shooters.

 

[Gordon0652]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet, but I would also recommend you try to find some 165grain ammo as well. 180 grain stuff is everywhere, but I fing the lighter stuff, in a heavy gun like a 229, is not much different than shooting 147 gr -9mm.
A while back I got a good deal on 135 gr Federal premium, so I bought a case. Super soft recoil and I pretty much keep it aside for new shooters.

Thank you for the suggestion. 180 grain is easy to find, but I will try the 165 grain as you suggested. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Gordon0652]

Hi Everyone,

This past Saturday I had a lesson and I must say I learned a lot! After trial and error I learned my more comfortable grip and a few things were fixed. Before the lesson the instructor had me put 50 rounds down range in increments of 10 using five targets. 4 of the 5 targets were grouped with a 2-1/2 to 3" about 2.5" left to the center point at 7 yards, I quickly learned that I am consistent which for a beginner is great, apparently.
The few things that were fixed (I am right handed and my dominate eye is right):

- Straighten left elbow, slight bend to right elbow
- Bring the handgun to my sight picture do not move my head/neck to the gun
- More trigger finger
- Less fighting the recoil

After changing these issues I was within 1" of the center point with nice grouping. Next time I will take some photos and post.

After about 250 - 300 shots I became very fatigued and started to flinch with every shot. I am going to have another lesson in January, one lesson a month and I will be going to the range twice a week for practice.
When I become more consistent the lessons will start to change over to defensive carry lessons because that is my primary use, well hopefully never use.

Most recently I picked up the P320 in 9mm and that is a very nice handgun, not crazy on the slippery grip but I am in the process of laser cutting grip tape. Stippling costs 100$+ and cannot be removed. I will be working with both handguns at the range. I am more accurate with the P320 and I suppose that is because it is lighter and in a smaller round but something about the P229 just feels right...

Will report back, and once again thank you for all the suggestions and comments, you all have been a big help!


Ken

 

[SJan]

Stippling costs 100$+ and cannot be removed.

Stippling can be done yourself with a $15 soldering iron from harbor freight. If you screw it up and don't like it, new grip modules for the P320 are about $40

 

[mikem317]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet, but I would also recommend you try to find some 165grain ammo as well. 180 grain stuff is everywhere, but I fing the lighter stuff, in a heavy gun like a 229, is not much different than shooting 147 gr -9mm.
A while back I got a good deal on 135 gr Federal premium, so I bought a case. Super soft recoil and I pretty much keep it aside for new shooters.

On a related note, I would also suggest to stay away with +P SAAMI ammo even if the gun is compatible with it. IMHO, it induces flinches, especially with new shooters and even experienced shooters that are more acclimated to polymer handguns.

 

[Doogz]

Hi Everyone,

This past Saturday I had a lesson and I must say I learned a lot! After trial and error I learned my more comfortable grip and a few things were fixed. Before the lesson the instructor had me put 50 rounds down range in increments of 10 using five targets. 4 of the 5 targets were grouped with a 2-1/2 to 3" about 2.5" left to the center point at 7 yards, I quickly learned that I am consistent which for a beginner is great, apparently.
The few things that were fixed (I am right handed and my dominate eye is right):

- Straighten left elbow, slight bend to right elbow
- Bring the handgun to my sight picture do not move my head/neck to the gun
- More trigger finger
- Less fighting the recoil

After changing these issues I was within 1" of the center point with nice grouping. Next time I will take some photos and post.

After about 250 - 300 shots I became very fatigued and started to flinch with every shot. I am going to have another lesson in January, one lesson a month and I will be going to the range twice a week for practice.
When I become more consistent the lessons will start to change over to defensive carry lessons because that is my primary use, well hopefully never use.

Most recently I picked up the P320 in 9mm and that is a very nice handgun, not crazy on the slippery grip but I am in the process of laser cutting grip tape. Stippling costs 100$+ and cannot be removed. I will be working with both handguns at the range. I am more accurate with the P320 and I suppose that is because it is lighter and in a smaller round but something about the P229 just feels right...

Will report back, and once again thank you for all the suggestions and comments, you all have been a big help!


Ken

Great to hear. Check out Talon Grips for the P320.

 

[TY43215]

Hi Everyone,

This past Saturday I had a lesson and I must say I learned a lot! After trial and error I learned my more comfortable grip and a few things were fixed. Before the lesson the instructor had me put 50 rounds down range in increments of 10 using five targets. 4 of the 5 targets were grouped with a 2-1/2 to 3" about 2.5" left to the center point at 7 yards, I quickly learned that I am consistent which for a beginner is great, apparently.
The few things that were fixed (I am right handed and my dominate eye is right):

- Straighten left elbow, slight bend to right elbow
- Bring the handgun to my sight picture do not move my head/neck to the gun
- More trigger finger
- Less fighting the recoil

After changing these issues I was within 1" of the center point with nice grouping. Next time I will take some photos and post.

After about 250 - 300 shots I became very fatigued and started to flinch with every shot. I am going to have another lesson in January, one lesson a month and I will be going to the range twice a week for practice.
When I become more consistent the lessons will start to change over to defensive carry lessons because that is my primary use, well hopefully never use.

Most recently I picked up the P320 in 9mm and that is a very nice handgun, not crazy on the slippery grip but I am in the process of laser cutting grip tape. Stippling costs 100$+ and cannot be removed. I will be working with both handguns at the range. I am more accurate with the P320 and I suppose that is because it is lighter and in a smaller round but something about the P229 just feels right...

Will report back, and once again thank you for all the suggestions and comments, you all have been a big help!


Ken

Ken,

If you are having issues, changing guns is not good. Pick the one you want to master and work with it. The SA/DA 229 is obviously different from the striker fired 320. The 229 is actually different from the 226 as far as grip is concerned.

If the grip of the 229 is not comfortable and you have the stock grip panels, try an E2 grip. They are a different shape and closer to the 320. They are also a little better gripping surface. They can be had for not a lot of cash.

The biggest problem I have seen with Sig Classics is grip. They do not allow the high thumbs grip other pistols do and, therefore, are more difficult to master. Very few people actually shoot the Sig classics so getting good advice on them is not easy. I also have a problem with the concept of the Sig 3 dot sights and find many newer shooters are concentrating on the dots rather than proper sight alignment.

It sounds like you are making progress with the 229 so don't switch right now unless you will be sticking with the 320 for a while. Stippling is nice but grip tape works just as well. Keep practicing and good luck. Work on sight proper sight alignment and grip nd the rest will come.

Although the 229 is my main gun, it was not easy for me to get used to even after 30 years of shooting.

http://shop.opticsplanet.com/sig-sauer-grip-upgrade-kit-p229-e2.html?_iv_code=SD9-G6-SSGRIPKIT229E2-GRIPKIT-229-E2&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=CjwKEAiAvs7CBRC24rao6bGCoiASJABaCt5DrgcvUdOj2noEsnTb2fm4JytI99AYom0ItQPSGnSxzRoC9FPw_wcB

 

[Gordon0652]

Stippling can be done yourself with a $15 soldering iron from harbor freight. If you screw it up and don't like it, new grip modules for the P320 are about $40

Thank you for the reply, I actually did pick up a soldering iron and thought about trying it after finding that grips are 40$, not a bad deal.

 

[Gordon0652]

On a related note, I would also suggest to stay away with +P SAAMI ammo even if the gun is compatible with it. IMHO, it induces flinches, especially with new shooters and even experienced shooters that are more acclimated to polymer handguns.

mikem317, that is an interesting thought. Sometimes I do use +P ammo in 9mm but it is rare. I am trying to concentrate on the .40 because that is the gun I am having most trouble with. Thank You for the response.

 

[Gordon0652]

Ken,

If you are having issues, changing guns is not good. Pick the one you want to master and work with it. The SA/DA 229 is obviously different from the striker fired 320. The 229 is actually different from the 226 as far as grip is concerned.

If the grip of the 229 is not comfortable and you have the stock grip panels, try an E2 grip. They are a different shape and closer to the 320. They are also a little better gripping surface. They can be had for not a lot of cash.

The biggest problem I have seen with Sig Classics is grip. They do not allow the high thumbs grip other pistols do and, therefore, are more difficult to master. Very few people actually shoot the Sig classics so getting good advice on them is not easy. I also have a problem with the concept of the Sig 3 dot sights and find many newer shooters are concentrating on the dots rather than proper sight alignment.

It sounds like you are making progress with the 229 so don't switch right now unless you will be sticking with the 320 for a while. Stippling is nice but grip tape works just as well. Keep practicing and good luck. Work on sight proper sight alignment and grip nd the rest will come.

Although the 229 is my main gun, it was not easy for me to get used to even after 30 years of shooting.

http://shop.opticsplanet.com/sig-sa...j2noEsnTb2fm4JytI99AYom0ItQPSGnSxzRoC9FPw_wcB

TY43215, Thank you for responding to my post. I am still staying with the P229 and yesterday I ordered a Sig X-Change kit to change from .40 to 9mm for the P229 to see if the recoil is an issue on top of the other problem I am trying to fix, all of which are my errors. The P229 does have the e2 grips and this handgun actually feels the most comfortable to me. This is why I am trying to fight it out.

After working with the instructor my sight picture has increased and I am no longer focusing on the three dots.

Thank you for the reply and it is nice to hear about others experiences with the P229.

 

[Gordon0652]

Great to hear. Check out Talon Grips for the P320.

Thank You Doggz, I will look into this grip before trying my own stippling. Thank you and awesome profile photo.

 

[TY43215]

TY43215, Thank you for responding to my post. I am still staying with the P229 and yesterday I ordered a Sig X-Change kit to change from .40 to 9mm for the P229 to see if the recoil is an issue on top of the other problem I am trying to fix, all of which are my errors. The P229 does have the e2 grips and this handgun actually feels the most comfortable to me. This is why I am trying to fight it out.

After working with the instructor my sight picture has increased and I am no longer focusing on the three dots.

Thank you for the reply and it is nice to hear about others experiences with the P229.

Sounds like you are making progress. That is good. 9MM makes a difference. I use a BarSto conversion barrel. If you ever want to try 357SIG or a 226, let me know. It can be arranged with a trip to Cape Cod The difference between a 229 and a 226 is huge and I actually prefer the 226.

Keep practicing and if you need 9MM mags, the 226 mags using an X grip adapter work great