The number of shots atare recommended in the article are simply his best advice.
These numbers are the reason why I most often carry a .45 ACP
I say this with respect, so please don't take any more offense than is required to seriously consider what I'm saying. Those numbers seem like they were just pulled out of his ass.
Jim Cirillo's first gunfight was him & his .38 revolver vs. 3 guys, and he won, they all stopped just fine. NYPD has had multiple 1 shot stops with 9mm pistols. Tim Palmer absorbed 22 .40 S&W's fired by a North Carolina LEO before he stopped,
17 center of mass; in a similar incident a Mass. LEO put 16 rounds of .40 COM on a felon that didn't stop him, but a stray to the knee took him out of the fight. Handguns are relatively low powered gunfighting tools, and they often have mixed results, even with the high end "manstopper" calibers.
Everything I've ever seen, heard or read says that all conventional handgun calibers perform the same in gunfights, and while I won't fault anyone for choosing to carry a .45 over a 9mm or a .38 over a .45, it seems crazy to me that someone would choose their self defense caliber based on this guys numbers.
You shoot until the threat has been mitigated. Either by draining the blood out of the enemy of an incapacitating shot.
In fact, Jeff Gonzales said don't train yourself to fire a certain amount of rounds - shoot him to the ground and then if he still is a threat shoot him on the ground.
Exactly. Shoot until they stop, however many that takes. It's like when a 5 year old brings candy to their kindergarten class...bring enough for everyone.
I think he's saying that you should practice firing X many rounds (at least) per threat when you're at the range. Not just one per target from a static position like it's a qualification course. In other words, put a bunch of rounds on the target while you move. Seems like solid theory to me....
Seems like suicide to me.
CHP Officer James Pence was killed in the infamous Newhall Shootout. He died while reloading in that gunfight, and investigators found empty shell casings in his pants pockets. Turns out, when CHP would qualify, some of the officers complained about bending down to pick up empty shells off the ground at the end of the day. So they compromised; they'd allow them to dump the empty shells from their revolvers into their hands, then transfer them to their pockets before loading live ammo.
When the SHTF on the side of the road in the middle of the night, Pence reverted to his lowest level of training and did what he'd practiced at the range. It cost him his life.
There's a SWAT cop out west who froze up in a gunfight after double tapping a suspect who didn't stop, because he'd drilled that two to the chest would stop people. Some other officers had to shoot the suspect and put him down. You will fight the way you train, imperfections and all.
I think that talking about military shooting and civilian defensive shooting in the same thread is absurd
Our Armed Forces carry a lot of spare mags and the average civilian carries none to two.
Military shooting is much longer range than civilian defensive shooting.
Civilians normally have no way to replenish their ammo supply
Bad guys have been killed with one good hit and lived after a lot of good hits.
Civilians can assume that they will face somewhere between one and maybe 4 or 5 bad guys.
We have to shoot well and make what ammo that we have last until the end of the fight.
If you run out of ammo in a fight, you had better be very luck and/or very fast.
I agree with you, civilian and military shooting is different in circumstance and practice, but at the core it's the same for everyone. A soldier has to shoot until they stop. A CCW holder has to shoot until they stop. A Crip shooting at a Blood has to shoot until they stop. If a CCW holder can't be bothered to carry enough ammo, modifying their tactics to conserve ammo seems even more backwards to me.
That being said when I was in the Army I carried 4 M4 mags, 2 Glock mags.
When did the Army start using Glocks? Just curious.
I don’t convolute violence from the battlefield and in the ghetto. The only difference is the enemy at war is much better trained.
In general, probably. But in "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers," it was found that the more successful police shooters did have training.
Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.
Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."
Also, current estimates say that there's anywhere from 25,000-45,000 gang members in the US military right now, and they have used this training to educate their homies when they get back home. Andres Raya brought some attention to this issue after the Ceres shootout, but it's nothing new; prison CID units have secretly videotaped prisoners practicing the 3 man bump and other tactics for years. Criminals stateside do have access to training, and they are using it when doing home invasions, robbing liquor stores or shooting at rivals. Law abiding citizens are falling victim to this type of stuff regularly as well.
I still don’t know where the Modern Warfare ammo resupply point is at war. Maybe you can give me a grid. In most cases a civilian can resupply allot faster than a soldier can. They just have to drive to Wal-Mart.
I think his point is that if a soldier gets in a drawn out gun battle, at some point they will get re-supplied. In the US if you get pinned down somewhere, you have what you have until it's over. You're also carrying less ammo in the first place than most soldiers do. Ogden Police Officer Kenneth Hammond learned this the hard way at the Trolley Square mall shooting, and he vowed that he would never again carry a gun without a reload.
