(Update: Round 2) Appleseed this weekend, getting ready, AQT prep

[nightpoison]

So I'm ready to go for this weekend. Doing the Appleseed event up in Dunbarton, NH with my brother in-law. Very much looking forward to it. I had a couple questions for those who have attended appleseeds in the past.

First off, the BIL and I made it out to the range on Wed to sight in. While we were there we decided to do a practice AQT. We followed the rules for the AQT and did two rounds each, just for practice. Neither of use had our slings yet, so weren't using one. Question: Which part of the target counts for points. we printed off practice AQT targets. The full silhouette has a white outer section with 3, but the inner two sections were black, 4 & 5. We took our scores based off of the black only. I ended up with a 165 counting only the black area of the silhouette. Should we have been counting the white section of the silhouette as well?

I have two 10/22's, going to be bringing both. One I built up as a target build, bull barrel, custom trigger, target stock, nothing is stock. I have fun building things, rifles are no different. Its scoped with a 2x9. The 2nd rifle, only things I've changed is the BX-Trigger, a magpul stock and picked up tech sights specifically for this event. I've read that you can use scope or iron sights for appleseed. I fully intend on using the iron sights as I was punching a quarter with my scope at 25m. At these events do they limit the magnification if you're using a scope?

Also, for those who haven't shot SK Match .22 ammo. I have two comments, 1) Damn, are they greased up. Had a hard time loading the mags as they were so lubed up out of the box. 2) Very consistent ammo. Using it to sight in the rifle, it just kept punching consistent hits on target. Clean shoot, nothing really to clean up after. Quick wipe was all that was needed. Took shots out to 100yards, with iron sights and it rang the steel target every time. I don't have any hard data on how it shoots, just felt great and consistent.

Any advice for the Event, would gladly accept.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Here is how the AQT works:

The large target is shot standing. 10 rounds.
The next row down (2 targets) is shot sitting. 5 rounds each.
The next row (3 targets) is shot prone. 3, 3, and 4 rounds.
The last row (4 targets) is shot prone. 2, 2, 3, and 3 rounds.

Hits on each target are totaled up, 5, 4, or 3 points depending on where they hit. Total each row. The fourth row counts double (10, 8, or 6 points... or 5, 4, and 3 points and count the fourth row twice). Add up your rows.

There are some other nuances you will learn this weekend about transitioning from one position to the other, timing, magazine changes, etc. but that is the basic AQT scoring.

Either of your rifles will work. Iron sights are encouraged but both iron and scoped are acceptable. There is no magnification limit on scopes but lowest magnification is encouraged. Bring both rifles in case you or someone else has an equipment failure. Appleseeds can be taxing on both people and equipment. Tools and cleaning kit are not a bad idea either. Things can work loose and it would be a shame to be out of the game for lack of an allen key or screwdriver.

Have lots of ammo. I don't know how it is in NH, but in MA we will go through about 1000 rounds each over the course of the weekend. Again, you don't want to find yourself late on a Sunday with scores clocking up each round, just short of 210 points and out of ammo.

You don't mention magazines. You want four or more. Two is the absolute minimum. If they are running the staged AQT you can do it with one. If they are running the rapid fire AQT you need four or someone has to be reloading magazines for you while you are shooting. Two would be the minimum for a rapid fire AQT. If you have more than four, you can use extra bits of time here and there to keep them all loaded and not be in as much of a rush between AQT runs. Instructors often have extra 10/22 magazines you can borrow, but there are no guarantees so check first.

Some sort of pad or shooting mat is a really good idea. You are going to be spending a lot of time on the ground. Small rocks or hard concrete can make for a rough day if you don't have some sort of padding. Sleeping pads, yoga mats, moving blankets, and carpeting all work well. I have done it with nothing more than a painter's tarp folded up several times but it was a little thin. Bring a small towel for your rifle. If it rains it keeps the water off. If it is sunny it keeps the rifle cool so you can pick it up. You would be surprised how hot a black synthetic stock can get.

Obviously, PPE. Eyes and ears. Also sunscreen and a hat. You are going to be outside for 8+ hours. You probably aren't normally outside for that long. The hat is a good idea both as protection from the sun and from your neighbors brass. Likewise, long sleeves might be a good idea. Dress in layers or bring some options. Wear loose clothing. You will be standing, sitting, walking, lying down, getting up a lot over the weekend.

Water. You can't have too much water. Use it. If you aren't looking for a bathroom break you aren't drinking enough. Dehydration makes for poor muscle control, poor reasoning, and poor resiliency (easily frustrated, grumpy, etc). Worse, you won't realize it is happening until later.

A folding chair or two is a good idea. You can use it to stage your equipment and it can keep you from having to sit on the ground at lunch.

One that may not get mentioned much is foam/cardboard/newspaper and duck/gaff tape. You may discover that you need more height to see through the sights or down the scope properly. You can make a quick and dirty riser from dense foam or folded up cardboard or newspaper and tape it to the stock. Not pretty, but will do the job. You can make it pretty later.

The most important thing you can bring is an open mind and a teachable attitude. Be honest with yourself. If you can't see the sights with a good cheek weld, you need to fix that instead of "floating" until you can see. If you are using your muscles to get on target, you need to work on your position.

There will be a whole lot of information in a short period of time. You can go from zero to hero in two days but it is more likely that you will go from zero to pretty good in two days. It takes some time and effort to absorb, integrate, and practice what you will learn over the weekend. It will be fun and exciting but it will likely be frustrating at times as well. Relax, have fun. It is worth it.

 

[vicorjh]

SK Match .22 ammo

I agree on you SK Match comments, pretty good ammo. Works well when your under time pressure and can't affor the fliers.

do they limit the magnification if you're using a scope

No not limited, but you really aren't doing bench rest shooting. Sometimes it's better to not have 'too' much zoom. You'll find that you'll be just sufficiently accurate and you'll be able to gain your sight picture better by backing off slightly.

And, what @JackOfAllTrades says.

 

[slap shot]

Good luck. Be comfortable. Elbow and knee pads! Lots of up down.

 

[nightpoison]

@JackOfAllTrades, thanks for that. So we weren't scoring right, but no big deal. We just wanted to get some practice in before hand. We are expecting to have some fun, want to do well, but want to get more comfortable with shooting. We both plan on going with iron sights, just felt like bringing my other rifle as a back-up. The scope just felt less like a challenge for me.

@slap shot, comfort is what we are both more worried about. Its going to be another hot day. I dislike the idea of wearing long sleeves. I have a couple gallons of water for each day. Bringing a cooler for the car filled with water. I ended up picking up a padded shooting mat for the weekend.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

I've used cut tube socks to protect my elbows from my neighbors ejected hot brass, which when landing anywhere close to my elbow seemed to roll down in the dimple in my mat at the precise moment I would break a shot. My tiny elbow burns made earning my patch more special. Be the guy with socks on your elbows,..

 

[07Mustang]

Along with everything Jackofalltrades stated above, I found elbow pads and light weight long shelve shirt helped. Bring some aspirin or other pain medications, muscle can get sore. It's too late for this but for your next shoot practice going from standing to prone positions just to get the muscles used to moving. I did my shoot when I was in my late 50's and I was sore since my old muscles had not been put through that much work. 62 now and hope to do another shoot but when I do I will make sure I do some exercises to stretch the muscle. Have fun it is a great program.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Along with everything Jackofalltrades stated above, I found elbow pads and light weight long shelve shirt helped. Bring some aspirin or other pain medications, muscle can get sore. It's too late for this but for your next shoot practice going from standing to prone positions just to get the muscles used to moving. I did my shoot when I was in my late 50's and I was sore since my old muscles had not been put through that much work. 62 now and hope to do another shoot but when I do I will make sure I do some exercises to stretch the muscle. Have fun it is a great program.

I was in my 30s at my first Appleseed and I felt it Saturday night into Sunday morning. Like I said, most of us don't spend a full 8 hour day in the sun doing squats and running back and forth to the targets 25 yards away. It isn't so much that you don't do that much activity it is that you don't normally do those activities. You will be using muscles you don't normally use.

 

[ToddDubya]

I attended an Appleseed a few years ago. I almost think you'd be better off with very little shooting experience. I had to unlearn some habits but when they said they'd have you shooting extremely small groups by the end, they weren't kidding. I tried my best to not "know better" than the instructor, but when frustration set in my 17 year old self would kick in. If you can leave your ego at home and do what they say, you'll be amazed what you can do with a rifle.

My rifle gave me a lot of trouble (which it never had before) and I was constantly clearing jams. Like at least once per magazine. It really hurts your score when you're ejecting unfired rounds. But whatever, it was good practice. I did it during the previous .22 shortage, so there was much less shooting.

I don't know whether I liked the shooting or storytime better. The stories come out of Paul Revere's Ride, which is a fantastic read. It's about 50% foot/endnotes, which speaks to the amount of research that went into it.

 

[slap shot]

@JackOfAllTrades, thanks for that. So we weren't scoring right, but no big deal. We just wanted to get some practice in before hand. We are expecting to have some fun, want to do well, but want to get more comfortable with shooting. We both plan on going with iron sights, just felt like bringing my other rifle as a back-up. The scope just felt less like a challenge for me.

@slap shot, comfort is what we are both more worried about. Its going to be another hot day. I dislike the idea of wearing long sleeves. I have a couple gallons of water for each day. Bringing a cooler for the car filled with water. I ended up picking up a padded shooting mat for the weekend.

ive actually duct taped my elbows at a hot Appleseed. Saves the skin at least

 

[headednorth]

Here is how the AQT works:

The large target is shot standing. 10 rounds.
The next row down (2 targets) is shot sitting. 5 rounds each.
The next row (3 targets) is shot prone. 3, 3, and 4 rounds.
The last row (4 targets) is shot prone. 2, 2, 3, and 3 rounds.

Hits on each target are totaled up, 5, 4, or 3 points depending on where they hit. Total each row. The fourth row counts double (10, 8, or 6 points... or 5, 4, and 3 points and count the fourth row twice). Add up your rows.

There are some other nuances you will learn this weekend about transitioning from one position to the other, timing, magazine changes, etc. but that is the basic AQT scoring.

Either of your rifles will work. Iron sights are encouraged but both iron and scoped are acceptable. There is no magnification limit on scopes but lowest magnification is encouraged. Bring both rifles in case you or someone else has an equipment failure. Appleseeds can be taxing on both people and equipment. Tools and cleaning kit are not a bad idea either. Things can work loose and it would be a shame to be out of the game for lack of an allen key or screwdriver.

Have lots of ammo. I don't know how it is in NH, but in MA we will go through about 1000 rounds each over the course of the weekend. Again, you don't want to find yourself late on a Sunday with scores clocking up each round, just short of 210 points and out of ammo.

You don't mention magazines. You want four or more. Two is the absolute minimum. If they are running the staged AQT you can do it with one. If they are running the rapid fire AQT you need four or someone has to be reloading magazines for you while you are shooting. Two would be the minimum for a rapid fire AQT. If you have more than four, you can use extra bits of time here and there to keep them all loaded and not be in as much of a rush between AQT runs. Instructors often have extra 10/22 magazines you can borrow, but there are no guarantees so check first.

Some sort of pad or shooting mat is a really good idea. You are going to be spending a lot of time on the ground. Small rocks or hard concrete can make for a rough day if you don't have some sort of padding. Sleeping pads, yoga mats, moving blankets, and carpeting all work well. I have done it with nothing more than a painter's tarp folded up several times but it was a little thin. Bring a small towel for your rifle. If it rains it keeps the water off. If it is sunny it keeps the rifle cool so you can pick it up. You would be surprised how hot a black synthetic stock can get.

Obviously, PPE. Eyes and ears. Also sunscreen and a hat. You are going to be outside for 8+ hours. You probably aren't normally outside for that long. The hat is a good idea both as protection from the sun and from your neighbors brass. Likewise, long sleeves might be a good idea. Dress in layers or bring some options. Wear loose clothing. You will be standing, sitting, walking, lying down, getting up a lot over the weekend.

Water. You can't have too much water. Use it. If you aren't looking for a bathroom break you aren't drinking enough. Dehydration makes for poor muscle control, poor reasoning, and poor resiliency (easily frustrated, grumpy, etc). Worse, you won't realize it is happening until later.

A folding chair or two is a good idea. You can use it to stage your equipment and it can keep you from having to sit on the ground at lunch.

One that may not get mentioned much is foam/cardboard/newspaper and duck/gaff tape. You may discover that you need more height to see through the sights or down the scope properly. You can make a quick and dirty riser from dense foam or folded up cardboard or newspaper and tape it to the stock. Not pretty, but will do the job. You can make it pretty later.

The most important thing you can bring is an open mind and a teachable attitude. Be honest with yourself. If you can't see the sights with a good cheek weld, you need to fix that instead of "floating" until you can see. If you are using your muscles to get on target, you need to work on your position.

There will be a whole lot of information in a short period of time. You can go from zero to hero in two days but it is more likely that you will go from zero to pretty good in two days. It takes some time and effort to absorb, integrate, and practice what you will learn over the weekend. It will be fun and exciting but it will likely be frustrating at times as well. Relax, have fun. It is worth it.

This is excellent advice.

Extra water, extra ammo, a mat and/or elbow pads, food, sunscreen, a clean towel, baby wipes.

My 10/22 came with a slippery buttplate which would move around on me. One of the instructors put some skateboard tape over it and it helped a lot.

Go there pretending that you've never shot a rifle in your life. Listen to what they say and do exactly what they say.

 

[northny]

My only advise to add would be if you aren’t shooting you should be filling your mags!

If you start to get frazzled at any point, skip one relay.

 

[northny]

My only advise to add would be if you aren’t shooting you should be filling your mags!

If you start to get frazzled at any point, skip one relay.

 

[Arto]

A sling will be of waaay more benefit than martch-grade ammo

 

[mac1911]

A sling will be of waaay more benefit than martch-grade ammo

a sling will be of much better aid to that expensive ammo!
Just go and have fun, keep away from caffeine and foods drinks with a lot of sugar. Anything to keep your body pulse to a minimum. That sling will transfer some good body pulse if your jacked up on coffee and sugar.
Dont forget to breath.

 

[headednorth]

I was in my 30s at my first Appleseed and I felt it Saturday night into Sunday morning. Like I said, most of us don't spend a full 8 hour day in the sun doing squats and running back and forth to the targets 25 yards away. It isn't so much that you don't do that much activity it is that you don't normally do those activities. You will be using muscles you don't normally use.

I was in my early 40s. The sun got to me and my elbows were screaming at the end of the day. I stopped at DSG on the way home looking for elbow pads. One of the handout sheets they give you talks about dry firing in the various positions at home to get your muscles used to it.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

My only advise to add would be if you aren’t shooting you should be filling your mags!

If you start to get frazzled at any point, skip one relay.

This is good advice when you start shooting back to back AQTs.
you need to be relaxed and ready to go once the FIRE command is given, not rushing to get in position.
It also helps to know the course of fire well enough that you dont have to think about it. You will be trying to concentrate on many things at once.
Great advice in this thread.

 

[Loosh]

I've done two, the second I made the mistake of trying to do it without glasses (I was in denial about my aging eyes, don't make that mistake if you want to have fun) so things really started to suck as my eyes got tired and things got blurry.

A sling's critical; a good chunk of the course is built around it.
Chair and a mat (I bought an extra wide yoga mat which worked wonderfully)
Extra water and munchies; dehydration and hunger frak with your vision
Extra ammo which you know your rifle likes. If they start running the 40rd sets in rapid succession you can go though bricks of ammo almost as fast as you can open them.
Extra mags. I had five standard mags for my 10/22 for the second class and one of them crapped out mid-string, leaving me with the minimum until I could take time at home to break it down. Your spare mags might also keep a classmate shooting for the rest of the day instead of making an early trip home.
Practice the positions... a lot. By the time you're home after the first day you'll be discovering muscles you didn't know you had.
And the most important thing to take... an open mind.

 

[Eugenio.FV]

A proper sling is essential for Appleseed. Without one it’s really really hard to get the points during aqt. I honestly believe that doing Appleseed have made me a better shooter than anything else, it’s a ton of practice and learning within a small timeframe.

for the AQT i recommend starting prone, and working from bottom left towards the top. This will give you more time to setup your natural point of aim and start knocking down those small, high point targets. Then move to sitting, andfinally you will have whatever time is left forstanding. Giving yourself more time for the bottom 2 rows will set you up for better results.

 

[mac1911]

I've done two, the second I made the mistake of trying to do it without glasses (I was in denial about my aging eyes, don't make that mistake if you want to have fun) so things really started to suck as my eyes got tired and things got blurry.

A sling's critical; a good chunk of the course is built around it.
Chair and a mat (I bought an extra wide yoga mat which worked wonderfully)
Extra water and munchies; dehydration and hunger frak with your vision
Extra ammo which you know your rifle likes. If they start running the 40rd sets in rapid succession you can go though bricks of ammo almost as fast as you can open them.
Extra mags. I had five standard mags for my 10/22 for the second class and one of them crapped out mid-string, leaving me with the minimum until I could take time at home to break it down. Your spare mags might also keep a classmate shooting for the rest of the day instead of making an early trip home.
Practice the positions... a lot. By the time you're home after the first day you'll be discovering muscles you didn't know you had.
And the most important thing to take... an open mind.

The sling will add a lot of support prone and sitting.

If you wear Rx and dont have a Rx just for target shooting you should think about getting them. Tou need to see a Eye Dr. that understands the needs for target shooters.

Your eyes will get tired, dont for get to breath and dont stare down your sights /scope target to long before taking a shot

 

[45Badger]

So, how was it? I took my son to one in 2009 or so when we lived in PA. It was awesome except-

I was a dumbass and shot it with an M1A. My son shot an AR. Should have shot .22s. By the end of the weekend, I was sore. We had a blast and I became a better shooter. Getting the fundamentals right makes it so much easier.

For me, the biggest/simplest learning was to completely exhale or inhale. The instructor make a joke of how many of us learned to shoot with “take a deep breath, let it half out, pull the trigger” -nobody on earth knows how much air equates to half their lung capacity!

learning that I had 3 seconds before my brain kicks in with “where the f*** is my oxygen?” was priceless. 3 seconds is an eternity when timing shots between heart beats

 

[MaverickNH]

July & August 2-day gun courses are off my agenda, having done a few these last couple years. I’m too old (And fat) to hustle in the heat!

But an Appleseed is a great experience.

 

[FiremanBob]

You guys did great this weekend. You're welcome on my firing line any time.

 

[nightpoison]

@FiremanBob BOB!!!! Hello Sir. Thank you so much for that. It was a real pleasure to learn from you. I had a great time, learned a lot, and really enjoyed the history lesson.

For those of you who have not attended this event at all, or have not taken it with Bob. You really should. Not only did Bob have a wealth of knowledge related to marksmanship, but he really is a fantastic story teller. He made the history portion of the two days very entertaining.

I had a great time over the weekend. We had some rain yesterday in the AM, lots of humidity and the heat was brutal. Today with more heat, but we all made it through the day. Both days were packed full of information, lessons, and guidance from both instructions Matt and Bob. I really enjoyed the event and will be signing up for more in the near future.

o Yes, for those who are interested. I earned my Rifleman patch today. It was towards the end of the day today, I scored a 217. My score dropped a bit down to 202 on the next test, however, the final AQT of the day I scored a 220. So I felt real great about that.

 

[JayMcB]

There's invaluable info in this thread.

I got my patch on my 3rd one, after I came to an acknowledgement that my middle aged eyes couldn't do it with irons.

My kids did their first ones at 8 and 12.

Other than what's above, the only thing I'd suggest is a 10x10 EZ-UP for shade on hot days. In one of them, it also helped keep drizzle off.

 

[nightpoison]

@JayMcB yea I hear you. I started my day off yesterday with Iron sights, and honestly I was very please with how I was starting off the event. However, by the end of the day with the heat, and strain I wasn't really seeing the sights very well. Today I started off right where I left off with the iron sights yesterday. So after lunch I switched over to my second rifle, scoped. It took a couple rounds for me to get comfortable with the scope after using the iron sights, different stock, and honestly I really needed to concentrate on my breathing more. Plus I was starting to get frustrated and tired. A mandatory a water break was called and took the time to pull my shit together. Came back to the a lot more focused.

o yea, one more thing. I'm going back to my next event with elbow pads. I am missing several layers of skin on my elbows. My shooting mat was padded, BUT the pad was hot as hell throughout the day, it has a semi rough texture, and did I mention the sand. Well yea, I ended up with band-aid patches on my elbows, which helped a little.

 

[slap shot]

@JayMcB yea I hear you. I started my day off yesterday with Iron sights, and honestly I was very please with how I was starting off the event. However, by the end of the day with the heat, and strain I wasn't really seeing the sights very well. Today I started off right where I left off with the iron sights yesterday. So after lunch I switched over to my second rifle, scoped. It took a couple rounds for me to get comfortable with the scope after using the iron sights, different stock, and honestly I really needed to concentrate on my breathing more. Plus I was starting to get frustrated and tired. A mandatory a water break was called and took the time to pull my shit together. Came back to the a lot more focused.

o yea, one more thing. I'm going back to my next event with elbow pads. I am missing several layers of skin on my elbows. My shooting mat was padded, BUT the pad was hot as hell throughout the day, it has a semi rough texture, and did I mention the sand. Well yea, I ended up with band-aid patches on my elbows, which helped a little.

lol@ elbow pads I warned you!

Congrats.

 

[headednorth]

lol@ elbow pads I warned you!

Congrats.

Same here. I brought a carpet remnant for a mat and after a while, it was just a different kind of hurt. Stopped at DSG on the way home on day 1 and all they had were like $200 lacrosse elbow pads. Had to tough it out the next day but never again.

 

[nightpoison]

lol@ elbow pads I warned you!

Congrats.

I kinda tried to find some, but it was last minute, and didn't try so hard. Figured the padded shooting mat would help. Yea, nope

You live..... You learn

 

[Twigg]

If using a scope, use a low power- less "shake". A sling is your friend. a Loop sling is a really good friend.