Geez Rob, I didn't think any knowledgeable person thought we were defeated in Vietnam. I was part of Third Marine Division, in the northern most part of South Vietnam, when .gov pulled us out of Vietnam, so I know a bit about that time and place in history. The Vietnam conflict (we never declared war), was not popular with the American voter. Every American mother wanted their sons and daughters to be returned home. Presidents like to cater to voters and to be popular. To that end, the U. S. completed removal of the last of our troops from Vietnam in 1975. I'll tell you two things about that first hand. First, the troops didn't want to leave Vietnam without final and complete victory. Part way through my first tour of duty, I signed up for a second, back to back tour of duty in Vietnam. I still have my copy of the paperwork that I signed, to substantiate what I've just said. I wanted to be there. While I was there we won every battle, skirmish and fire fight that we were in. Every one of them, so it's very hard to sell the we lost concept to me, or the rest of Third Marine Division that was there. Last, Ho Chi Minh blew his load on the 1968 TET offensive. He sent 60,000, well trained, well outfitted and well armed NVA troops down the Ho Chi Minh Trail to destroy South Vietnam. The first line of defense, for South Vietnam, at that time, was the Third Marine Division, that was deployed along and around the DMZ. The Third Marine Division killed approximately half of Ho Chi Minh's troops right there on and around the DMZ. It was later written that the initial battles took such a toll on the NVA, that ultimately, the TET offensive was a failure, for North Vietnam. The NVA never regained its former effectiveness, and for the most part, the conflict was over for them, long term. Then by popular demand, the POTUS ordered the removal of all U.S. troops from South Vietnam. Summary, never tell a member of the Third Marine Division, that was there, and lived through it and saw first hand what took place, that we were defeated, because that's pure bullshit.