Weapon vs. Tool

C-pher

C-pher

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As I missed the end of that thread... It got me to thinking.

While many people view it as both...or one or the other. I've never really thought of my guns strictly as a weapon.

But then, I grew up in both the city, and the country. Raised in the South, and learned that all our guns were thougt of as tools. Same as a drill, saw, or hammer. It had a function, and that could differ depending on where you were or what you needed. I know that most of the people on this board are big into personal protection. But that's never really been what my guns are to me.

Hell, even at the start of our country, guns were tools. Talk to anyone that was a big Western History buff.

If you ever wonder why many of the old Six shooters never made it, it was because they were used as tools.

If a rancher fell off his horse and broke his leg it was a signal. Two quick shots in the air would signal back to his home that he's hurt and needs someone to come and help.

The but of the gun made for a DAMN good hammer when fixing fence. And unlike the old westerns...they rarely carried a rifle on the side of their horse. It was heavy and offset the balance of their saddle.


It was like that growing up with my grandfather. The one that get me started with guns when I was a kid. He grew up in Pellville, KY. A small town about the size of a city block. Even after his parents died, he kept that land along with the house he had in Louisville. We spent many weekends down there. It was a house with a bucket well, and the gutters that drained into that well. The kitchen had a pump for the running water, and an outhouse that was still functional. But he did have a bathroom put on the side of the house, along with a septic. The heat was a fireplace, and the A/C was opening up a window. No TV, and we spent the evenings sitting on the front porch, swinging and drinking Nehi.

Gun were used at tools, or as entertainment. If I was complaining that I was board...I'd get sent walking down to the corner store with some money to pick up a brick of .22s. He would pull out my old Winchester 190, put a stick in the ground, hang a few tin cans on the top...and I would have something to do for hours. I just couldn't shoot over all the tobacco fields.

They were used to get food when they wanted something other than one iof the Chickens running around the farm. My grandfather could pick off bull frogs from across the pond with out any issues. He could also get a fish if it was close to the top. The man was a genius when it came to shooting those .22s.


I guess my point is its where and how you grew up. I would think that for most that grew up in the outskirts, the firearms are more of a tool. If you grew up in a city with violence and the like, they are thought of as weapons. Being that in a city, what else can you do with them? There's no room for any type of recreational fun with them. So, I would think that's how they would be perceived.


When I was growing up, there were guns all over the house. In a glass case in the living room, in closets, drawers, behind doors. It wasn't that big of a deal. We knew what they were, tools. We didn't play with them, just like we weren't allowed to play with the drills, or the hand saw. Not because they were weapons, but because they were dangerous.

Anyway, it just got me to thinking...and I guess to some rambling.
 
one of the points that was made in the thread I'm thinking about is that firearms weren't originally designed as a tool but as a weapon to to be used to kill and/or defend. It's semantics really....a tool is an object used to accomplish a task...if killing is your task then a gun/firearm is a good tool for that job.

I use my guns as toys....they entertain me while I'm at the range. I call it playing....some might not. My car is transpotation for work and a toy when I'm racing on saturday night....but I can use it to run down a pedestrian and then it's a weapon. It all depends on the use at the time.

But cars weren't originally designed as weapons as firarms were and that was the Other Poster's point. .......I think....
 
sksguns said:
But cars weren't originally designed as weapons as firarms were....
Click to expand...

Could it also be argued that they were designed for hunting food, and just happened to move to that category by the use?

Speers, bows, slingshots...all are/were used to hunt food. Which would be construed as a tool in hunting. But because of the effectiveness, were also used as a weapon.
 
I think it is covered under free speech.

"You, bow to your king"

"FU" BANG.

(^_^)

Regardless, "Weapon" denotes a use. Do you go around calling your sneakers a weapon? How about a lighted cigarette? Your ring? Car Key? Why not?

Stuff ruled as weapons:

Serrated 8" steak knife - Thompson, 15 Mass. App. 974 (1983)
Nunchucks - Hardy, 427 Mass. 379 (1998)
German Shepherd dog - Tarrant, 367 Mass 411 (1975)
Lighted cigarette - Farrell, 322 Mass 606 (1948)
Riding crop - Appleby, 380 Mass 296 (1980)
Aerosol can - Barrett, 12 Mass App 1001 (1981)
Shod foot - Marrero, 19 Mass App 921 (1984) (boots); Fernandez, 43 Mass App 313 (1987)
(sneakers), Polydores, 29 Mass App 923 (1987) (running shoe)
Large ring - Rossi, 19 Mass App 257 (1985)
Concrete pavement - Sexton, 425 Mass 146 (1997)
Ocean - Shea, 38 Mass App 7 (1995)
Shod foot - Johnson, 14 Conn App 586 (1988)
3 ½" knife - Holloway, 11 Conn App 665 (1987)
Key - Frazier, 7 Conn App 27 (1986)
Garden hose nozzle - Levine, 39 Conn Supp. 494 (1983)
Hockey stick - Jones, 173 Conn 91 (1977)
Hammer, flashlight - Killenger, 193 Conn. 48 (1984)
Razor - Costa, 95 Conn 140 (1920)

Oh, I hear it now. "They were used as weapons, but were not designed as such. Guns were designed as weapons."

NO. Guns are designed and built to propel a shot in a particular direction. Everything else is a balance between size, accuracy, and reliability. It takes the action of a person to decide the use and thus the characterization of the device.
 
I couldn't find the first uses or intended uses but I did find this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm#History


History
Main article: History of Firearms
The direct ancestor of the firearm is the fire-lance, a gunpowder-filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower; shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[1][2] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-10th century silk banner from Dunhuang.[3]

In due course, the proportion of saltpeter in the propellant was increased to increase its explosive power.[2] To better withstand that explosive power, the paper and bamboo of which fire-lance barrels were originally made came to be replaced by metal.[1] And to take full advantage of that power, the shrapnel came to be replaced by projectiles whose size and shape filled the barrel more closely.[2] With this, we have the three basic features of the gun: a barrel made of metal, high-nitrate gunpowder, and a projectile which totally occludes the muzzle so that the powder charge exerts its full potential in propellant effect.[4]

The earliest depiction of a gun is a sculpture from a cave in Sichuan dating to the 1100s of a figure carrying a vase-shaped bombard with flames and a cannonball coming out of it.[5][6] The oldest surviving gun, made of bronze, has been dated to 1288 because it was discovered at a site in modern-day Acheng District where the Yuan Shi records that battles were fought at that time; Li Ting, a military commander of Jurchen descent, led foot-soldiers armed with guns—including a Korean brigade—in battle to suppress the rebellion of the Christian Mongol prince Nayan.[7]
 
seems they were originally designed as weapons...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-lance

Fire lance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Fire-lance)
Jump to: navigation, search
The fire lance (Traditional Chinese: 火槍; Simplified Chinese: 火枪; Pinyin: huǒ qiāng) or fire spear is one of the first gunpowder weapons in the world.

Contents [hide]
1 Description
2 History
3 See also
4 References
5 External links



[edit] Description
The earliest fire lances were spear-like weapons combining a tube containing gunpowder and projectiles tied to a Chinese spear. Upon firing, the charge ejected a small projectile or poison dart along with the flame. These fire lances had a range of only a few feet. Being a weapon that combines with a spear, it was initially used as a hand-to-hand weapon with the gunpowder shot designed to give the wielder an edge in close-quarter combat.

Inventors soon saw the merit in the gunpowder/tube design and fire lances then appeared independent of the spear.

Diagrams, illustrations and books from the 10th century show the fire lance being used in battle, but it saw the most prolific usage during early to mid Song Dynasty, when various northern peoples encroached on Chinese soil. These short-ranged, one-shot, disposable weapons were often held in racks on city walls and gave Chinese defenders a tremendous tactical and psychological advantage when fired in volleys. They were ideal for dealing with enemies trying to scale city walls, or for holding the enemy at bay behind a breached gate.
 
Just looking at the words (via www.dictionary.com) obviously a weapon is a kind of tool:
Tool: 5. anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose:

Weapon: 1. any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.​
Certainly an "instrument or device" qualifies as "anything", and "for use in attack or defense..." is a "purpose".

Even a toy can be considered a tool:
Toy: 3. something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious practical use.​
"Diversion" is still a "purpose". The definition of "tool" does not require that the "task or purpose" be "serious" or "practical".

Thus endth todays English lesson.
 
tools....

I feel like I should make a joke out of that somehow... [smile]
Ah the wonderful debates here on NEshooters love it! [popcorn]
I have always thought that there is only one thing that is a weapon, and that is the person. All items used in a violent way are still just that, things. Bricks, knives, guns, sticks, a fist, a foot whatever I feel that there is only one weapon and that is the human. Our ability to use tools in various ways is what makes things dangerous.
Just saw Babel, good movie but it reminds me when they interrogate the guide fellow in morrocco and he was cutting something with his knife, and the police told him to drop his weapon, and he was confused and said what weapon I don't have any weapons just my knife... Its all perception I guess. Although inherently, I will give that guns are far easier to use as a "weapon" than most other things, its design, inherently limits its utility as anything other than a weapon. But as people just noted... it really depends on your culture and rearing how you perceive guns in general.
 
IMHO it depends on the make/model. As an example my Glock pistols are weapons, designed for reliability under harsh battle conditions, My H&R .22 is a toy it was designed to punch holes in paper at a firing range. As a general rule I do not refer to any of my firearms as weapons while communicating in public as it tends to demonize them. I tend to say firearm but also use gun depending on context. For the most part it doesn't make a difference to me what others call them it just a personal preference of mine.
 
I wouldn't call my guns a "tool" but that's just me. I guess it could be argued that it could be a tool. I use the common terms "guns" and "firearms" when talking with people. Of course a "gun" could be a "weapon" and in many cases it is.. however whether we like it or not the word "weapon" has a negative connotation to some so I generally use "firearm" or "handgun". Using words with more positive connotations can't hurt any of us here can it? Or more importantly- with the public?
 
No offense to anyone (here it comes...) but this is a stupid discussion. Anything can be used as either a tool or a weapon.

I once beat the crap out of a guy with a (large) bag of rice. Let's start a thread entitled "Rice - Asian Staple or Weapon?". I was in a bar brawl one time and sent a doo-rag wearing assclown to the emergency room because I flattened his nose with an ashtray. Maybe we should start a "How Dangerous is Smoking?" thread.

All guns are tools, toys, or weapons - it all depends on what the bullets hit. Shoot at a deer and it's a tool, shoot at a target and it's a toy, shoot at a human and it's a weapon.

The "original intent" argument is bogus. Who gives a flying crap why some ancient Chinese dude put gunpowder in a tube? What does that have to do with what I do on my weekends? I don't even care how "utilitarian" a firearm supposedly is. It is what I use it for.
 
Last edited:
EddieCoyle said:
No offense to anyone (here it comes...) but this is a stupid discussion. Anything can be used as either a tool or a weapon.

I once beat the crap out of a guy with a (large) bag of rice. Let's start a thread entitled "Rice - Asian Staple or Weapon?". I was in a bar brawl one time and sent a doo-rag wearing assclown to the emergency room because I flattened his nose with an ashtray. Maybe we should start a "How Dangerous is Smoking?" thread.

All guns are tools, toys, or weapons - it all depends on what the bullets hit. Shoot at a deer and it's a tool, shoot at a target and it's a toy, shoot at a human and it's a weapon.

The "original intent" argument is bogus. Who gives a flying crap why some ancient Chinese dude put gunpowder in a tube? What does that have to do with what I do on my weekends? I don't even care how "utilitarian" a firearm supposedly is. It is what I use it for.
Click to expand...

WOW![shocked] Thumbs up to EC for the flaming of an entire thread. [flame]
 
EddieCoyle said:
No offense to anyone (here it comes...) but this is a stupid discussion. Anything can be used as either a tool or a weapon.

I once beat the crap out of a guy with a (large) bag of rice. Let's start a thread entitled "Rice - Asian Staple or Weapon?". I was in a bar brawl one time and sent a doo-rag wearing assclown to the emergency room because I flattened his nose with an ashtray. Maybe we should start a "How Dangerous is Smoking?" thread.

All guns are tools, toys, or weapons - it all depends on what the bullets hit. Shoot at a deer and it's a tool, shoot at a target and it's a toy, shoot at a human and it's a weapon.

The "original intent" argument is bogus. Who gives a flying crap why some ancient Chinese dude put gunpowder in a tube? What does that have to do with what I do on my weekends? I don't even care how "utilitarian" a firearm supposedly is. It is what I use it for.
Click to expand...

Now that is funny as hell!!!! [laugh2][rofl][rofl][rofl][laugh2]
 
Jeez, I have some big glass ashtrays that my wife has hummed at me a time or two. I never really thought of them as weapons, but they did make her point!!!!


I'm going to be especially careful if she comes home in a bad mood with a big bag of rice!

Eddie Coyle, between road rage on your way to work, and bar fights and your other stated adventures...how do you think you're going to make it to age 50? You seem like such a nice guy, yet you have so many incidents. Remind me not to go bar hopping with you. LOLOL
 
I am very OK with the original purpose of firearms being weapons.

That is the main reason I own them today. Recreational use is secondary.
 
FPrice said:
Just because that is true for you, does not make it true for everyone.
Click to expand...

True, I'm the complete opposite. It's something that I tend to fine with new shooters. They seem to pick it up as only a defensive use.. It's seems that people that grew up with them with generations of shooters take them in a different light.

I'm not saying it's always like that, I just seem to find that more often true than not.
 
I have always thought that there is only one thing that is a weapon, and that is the person.
Click to expand...

The person is the weapon, the thing that's in his hand is the tool...I know, because that's what the US Army told me.

At Ft Dix, I was told I was the ultimate weapon. They even erected a statue to me/us.

ultimatemoon%20copy.jpg

notice the M14....

the history of the ultimate weapon
 

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