Westfield Gun Club pleads "no contest"

I suspect that they already spent a very large amount on their defense. The prosecution has unlimited resources. The same is not true of the gun club.
 
I know I'm in the minority here but IMHO the event organizers got off way too easy in this case. A kid is dead because they were stupid and negligent, plain and simple. Yes the father was a moron and is also at fault but that doesn't let the organizers off the hook.
 
jasons said:
I know I'm in the minority here but IMHO the event organizers got off way too easy in this case. A kid is dead because they were stupid and negligent, plain and simple. Yes the father was a moron and is also at fault but that doesn't let the organizers off the hook.
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I think you are mistaking the gun club for the group that organized the shoot. They are two different groups. The gun club did not run the event. The group that organized the shoot, COP Firearms & Training, is still facing prosecution.
 
M1911 said:
I think you are mistaking the gun club for the group that organized the shoot. They are two different groups. The gun club did not run the event. The group that organized the shoot, COP Firearms & Training, is still facing prosecution.
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Ahh - you're right, the article seemed to imply that everyone (club and organizers) was lumped into the same settlement.
 
Sucks that they have to ban MGs, even for non event use. Basically, a few idiots (the kid's dad included) ruined it for everyone.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
Sucks that they have to ban MGs, even for non event use. Basically, a few idiots (the kid's dad included) ruined it for everyone.
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As is usually the case.

Note that the civil suit, in Federal court, will be the real financial threat.
 
Mark my words, lots of MA gun clubs will jump on that bandwagon and prohibit all F/A guns as well as kids under age <TBD> on their ranges. [thinking] [rolleyes]
 
M1911 said:
I think you are mistaking the gun club for the group that organized the shoot. They are two different groups. The gun club did not run the event. The group that organized the shoot, COP Firearms & Training, is still facing prosecution.
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The problem is, it's the club that can get shut down. It's like allowing a friend to host a party in your house and serve booze to guests who are under 21 years of age. Something tragic happens (fatal drunk-driving crash, for example) and you will be the one who loses everything that you own in a civil lawsuit, even though your friend gets prosecuted for doing the underage serving.
 
Attorneys representing the Biziljes asked the judge to accept the settlement because, they said, the family wanted to move on.
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The skeptic would say that contingency fee counsel suggested the family encourage acceptance of the settlement so that more club assets would be available for the civil suit.
 
HooVooLoo said:
Well of course, that is a given. What club would want to risk what Westfield went through financially after this debacle?
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There's a big difference between allowing a guy to shoot his MG at a range in MA and having an event open to the public where non-experienced joe randoms pay money to shoot an MG. Most clubs in MA that allow machineguns don't have "pay shoots" that are open to the public like Westfield did.

-Mike
 
LenS said:
Mark my words, lots of MA gun clubs will jump on that bandwagon and prohibit all F/A guns as well as kids under age <TBD> on their ranges. [thinking] [rolleyes]
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I can see that happening.......so glad I'm out of here real soon.
 
drgrant said:
There's a big difference between allowing a guy to shoot his MG at a range in MA and having an event open to the public where non-experienced joe randoms pay money to shoot an MG. Most clubs in MA that allow machineguns don't have "pay shoots" that are open to the public like Westfield did.

-Mike
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And if the green-card member brings his kid to the private club and this same thing happens, what is the difference?
 
And if the green-card member brings his kid to the private club and this same thing happens, what is the difference?
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The state is currently taking the position that there is no exemption that permits someone without a green card to handle a machine gun, even under the immediate supervision of the green card holder. Most clubs realize they are unable to afford to fight the state in an argument over the point, which hinges on what the legal definition of "provided" is.
 
LenS said:
Mark my words, lots of MA gun clubs will jump on that bandwagon and prohibit all F/A guns as well as kids under age <TBD> on their ranges. [thinking] [rolleyes]
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Certainly not all. My range was the only one who was willing to host a troup of scouts a month or so ago after they got turned away from several other clubs so the kids could get their rifle badge or something. Honestly if clubs start restricting kids from shooting on their ranges how are we going to teach the future generation about the value of the second amendment and how to enjoy the sporting aspect of it?
 
They passed a worthless law after that incident saying anyone under 16 cannot shoot a machine gun in CT..it will be and is ignored...

Think about it..how would they know what happens at a Private Gun Club or on Private Land...its more "feel good" legislation..
 
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HooVooLoo said:
And if the green-card member brings his kid to the private club and this same thing happens, what is the difference?
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The difference is that anyone who goes through the (considerable) trouble of getting a green card in MA is probably not going to be a f**king idiot like that kid's dad was... THAT is the difference. It's literally that simple.

Further, even if an incident did occur, do you really think the gun owner is going to sue the club for his own negligence? What is he going to do, sue himself? That really makes no sense, now does it?

-Mike
 
Further, even if an incident did occur, do you really think the gun owner is going to sue the club for his own negligence? What is he going to do, sue himself? That really makes no sense, now does it?
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People can sue clubs of which they are a member for failure to provide a safe envrionment; failure to properly supervise; not having the one range rule that would allegedly have prevented the accident; etc. This is one reason the NRA insurance is close to worthless - suits brought by club members are specifically excluded.

Suits are not about "making sense" but about money.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
People can sue clubs of which they are a member for failure to provide a safe envrionment; failure to properly supervise; not having the one range rule that would allegedly have prevented the accident; etc. This is one reason the NRA insurance is close to worthless - suits brought by club members are specifically excluded.

Suits are not about "making sense" but about money.
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I agree Rob, but I still think that the probability of a licensed MG owner in MA suing his own club over something like that is in the "slim to none" category.

I'd like to believe that there are still a few people who would tell the ambulance chasers to FOAD.

I remember years ago encountering one of them in passing. I had just blown out my knee while skiing... he suggested I sue the binding manufacturer.... My jaw almost
dropped. All I could say to him was "Yeah, I'm going to sue someone... for my own negligence.... sorry, but I'll pass. "

-Mike
 
Wonder what the fallout will be at the Haverhill club that just hosted the possible suicide?

I know that I'm possibly in the minority in thinking that this, but even here there's a lot of blame-placing.

It sucks, but it was an accident. As with any accident, there were causative factors that, in hindsight, lead one to say, "Duh!" but were not seen to be out of line before.

Excoriating the "stupid" dad when he was one of MANY who brought minors to the shoot serves our "side" no good purpose.
 
MisterHappy said:
Wonder what the fallout will be at the Haverhill club that just hosted the possible suicide?

I know that I'm possibly in the minority in thinking that this, but even here there's a lot of blame-placing.

It sucks, but it was an accident. As with any accident, there were causative factors that, in hindsight, lead one to say, "Duh!" but were not seen to be out of line before.

Excoriating the "stupid" dad when he was one of MANY who brought minors to the shoot serves our "side" no good purpose.
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So we're supposed to not lay blame on a dad that was stupid enough to bring a physically and mentally unprepared minor to this event and then not supervise him? Because many others brought minors who were physically prepared, mentally prepared, and successfully supervised there? [thinking]
 
Do you balme the dad of the kid that got hit riding his bike yesterday?

Do you blame the parents of kids that get killed skiiing?

Sometimes, there is no blame to lay. Sometimes sh!t happens.

The kid (according to earlier stories) was not unfamilliar with shooting, but it may have been his first time shooting FA.

The range controls were adequate prior to the accident, as far as I could see. Each shooter was under the direct, physical control of event staff, and, generally, the gun, as well.

It was a tragic, horrific, accident that draws unfavorable light on a subset of a minority group in this state. Guns are Icky. Machine guns are Ickier. This is the ultimate "if it bleeds, it leads." story.

The kid is dead. The dad will have to live with that. but [ducking for having an unpopular view....] accidents happen.

BTW: I was there, but left before the accident, so while not an eye witness to the accident, I can give a first person report of how things were being run.
 
The club got off easy, they should be thankful. The civil suit will close the place down and take their property, but this will only occur after the event organizers are found guilty of negligence.

not good
 
MisterHappy said:
Do you balme the dad of the kid that got hit riding his bike yesterday?
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If the dad throws his kid on a 900cc crotch rocket, you bet I do.

ETA: I'm not saying the dad should suffer any more i.e. criminal charges, however going after the organizers or the club is wrong IMO.
 
drgrant said:
Further, even if an incident did occur, do you really think the gun owner is going to sue the club for his own negligence? What is he going to do, sue himself?
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He might not. But depending upon the incident, his widow or his soon-to-be-ex wife -- the mother of his dead child -- might feel differently.
 
MisterHappy said:
The kid (according to earlier stories) was not unfamilliar with shooting, but it may have been his first time shooting FA.
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Obviously he was not familiar enough. Obviously neither was his father (I sort of doubt the father would have let him fire the Uzi if he had been.) It doesn't seem reasonable to expect an 8 year old or his dad to know how to properly handle an NFA item that very few people (civilians anyway) are exposed to with any regularity.

The kid and the father were both ignorant. Theoretically that was the whole point of the shoot - to bring in people who don't normally get to experience automatic weapons so that they can become less ignorant... This event specifically advertised "no age limits" and "fully automatic fire" with a safety instructor there to help. They came through on the first two points but what about the third?

MisterHappy said:
Each shooter was under the direct, physical control of event staff, and, generally, the gun, as well.
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"Event staff" in this case was a FIFTEEN year old kid. Think about it: whoever was in charge handed an Uzi to a 15 year old and said "You're in charge." How is that even defensible? IANAL, but that pretty much sounds like the definition of negligence to me.

MisterHappy said:
It was a tragic, horrific, accident that draws unfavorable light on a subset of a minority group in this state. Guns are Icky. Machine guns are Ickier. This is the ultimate "if it bleeds, it leads." story.

The kid is dead. The dad will have to live with that. but [ducking for having an unpopular view....] accidents happen.
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Yeah, but they're also preventable. In this case easily preventable.

MisterHappy said:
BTW: I was there, but left before the accident, so while not an eye witness to the accident, I can give a first person report of how things were being run.
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I was not there, so I have a ton of questions. Is it true that they put a 15 year old in charge as an RSO? Where were the adults? Where was the owner of the Uzi? Is it true that they taped down the grip safety on the Uzi because the kid wasn't even strong enough to squeeze it on his own? If so, who made that call?
 
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jasons said:
I was not there, so I have a ton of questions. Is it true that they put a 15 year old in charge as an RSO?


Not to split hairs, but RSO has a specific meaning. Each MG and shooter had a (presumably) experienced event staffer to take you and the gun to the firing line. I didn't shoot the Mico Uzi, I can't speak to who was in charge of that particular item.

Where were the adults? Where was the owner of the Uzi?

UNknown to me, I didn't fire that one (see above)

Is it true that they taped down the grip safety on the Uzi because the kid wasn't even strong enough to squeeze it on his own?

Don't know.

If so, who made that call?

Someone that screwed up, if so.
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My replies are in green above,

There were RSOs in overall charge of the firing line - they were separate from the individuals that were "in charge" of the individual guns. The smallest stuff we fired was an MP5 - I personally was uncomfortable with anything smaller....
 

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