Westfield Sportsmens Club Status?

[HorizontalHunter]

Anybody know what is going on with the Westfield Club these days? Is it still open? did they ever roll back the overly restrictive (IMO) range rules that drove many of the members away?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Lugnut]

They've had a few USPSA matches since....

 

[DGV1860]

As soon as some new blood comes in and some board members (not all) leave and take some ROs with them, the club can move foward. I have been a member for 25+ years and WSC has seen better days. WSC has always had good club participation with organized shooting sports. High Power, IPSC, Even some Handgun Silohuette at one time. Awesome Black Powder participation, especially the fall turkey shoots. I have seen 100+ shooters at some Black Powder Turkey shoots. (A credit to Fran Mitchell) Alot of people were turned off with what happened at the Machine gun shoot and even before that. Going to shoot there in 1 hour. Like alot of clubs, it is run by the 1% ers

 

[HorizontalHunter]

As soon as some new blood comes in and some board members (not all) leave and take some ROs with them, the club can move foward. I have been a member for 25+ years and WSC has seen better days. WSC has always had good club participation with organized shooting sports. High Power, IPSC, Even some Handgun Silohuette at one time. Awesome Black Powder participation, especially the fall turkey shoots. I have seen 100+ shooters ar some BP turkey shoots. (A credit to Fran Mitchell) Alot of people were turned off with what happened at the Machine gun shoot and even before that. Going to shoot there in 1 hour. Like alot of clubs, it is run by the 1% ers

I really liked just about everything about the club but the new range rules that were instituted in the wake of the machine gun tragedy drove me out. Are those range rules still in effect? If not can you tell me what the current range rules are?

Bob

 

[DGV1860]

Still in effect. We are on A "Probation" until March 2011. Whether things change after that? Time will tell

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Still in effect. We are on A "Probation" until March 2011. Whether things change after that? Time will tell

Thanks for the update. I would like to go back to the club but not under the current range rules. I will just renew at my current club. Fran is a great guy and has probably forgotten more about muzzle loading than I know.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Still in effect. We are on A "Probation" until March 2011. Whether things change after that? Time will tell

Can you tell me if the range rules have been rolled back since the club came off of "Probation"??? I was a member there for years but the range rules drove me out.

Bob

 

[mike01824]

I'd also appreciate it if anyone had a link to the club rules.

 

[DGV1860]

A new President was elected and changes are being made. Insurance is a problem I was told. Some rules changes are going to be in effect soon. As it is now, you cant even take your children to shoot.

 

[turbo38gn]

Can you tell me if the range rules have been rolled back since the club came off of "Probation"??? I was a member there for years but the range rules drove me out.

Bob

What drove you out Bob?,,,,

I recently signed up for the club, I haven't been there as yet but should get over there in the next week or so. I know the rules had to change after the unfortunate accident, but don't think past and future members should run from there because of the changes. We need to support this club more than ever to help get through the tough times imposed on them by the authorities. Do you want to lose another shooting club?> I don't, I'll do my part and look forward to meeting you guys out there.

 

[GunGrey]

Come join ARC it might be a little more expensive but so worth it . And good guest and family policy .

 

[turbo38gn]

Come join ARC it might be a little more expensive but so worth it . And good guest and family policy .

We belong to both and love Agawam Revolver Club, but they don't have a 300 yard range and a few other things, so for a few bucks I got more choices by also joining Westfield Sportsmens Club. Looks like we can do some fishing there in the spring too..

 

[HorizontalHunter]

What drove you out Bob?,,,,

I recently signed up for the club, I haven't been there as yet but should get over there in the next week or so. I know the rules had to change after the unfortunate accident, but don't think past and future members should run from there because of the changes. We need to support this club more than ever to help get through the tough times imposed on them by the authorities. Do you want to lose another shooting club?> I don't, I'll do my part and look forward to meeting you guys out there.

The range policies that they put in place after the Machine gun tragedy drove me out. I made a post about the new range rules when they went into effect but I can't find it and I long since threw away the range rules so I am going to go from memory.

The upshot is that they turned club into a VERY kid unfriendly club. Kids have to be 18 or possess a FID to handle /use a long gun; anyone had to have a LTC to handle or use a handgun. Kids under the age of 18 had to be accompanied by an adult anywhere on the property.

Kids are the life blood of our future and I cannot be a part of a club that treats kids this way. I really enjoyed the club but I and many others left the club in drove when the put those rules into effect. I told them they were going to put those range rules into effect I would leave and I though many others would to. Again, this is from memory and may have changed by now hence my original question.

They used to have large white metal signs posted on the ranges with the rules.

Sadly, The Chicopee Stortsman's club is going down the same road. New on the membership application this year are caliber restrictions based on children's ages. If you are a member read the application for 2012.

I need to be part of a club that actually wants to grow our sport. A place where there is a guest policy that will allow my to introduce a non-member to the shooting sports and actually welcomes kids to the club to shoot. My nine year old neice shoots better than many adults I know; yet most clubs these days restrict what she can shoot and some clubs wouldn't even allow her to shoot anything.

This will eventually be the death of private gun ownership in this country. IMO this is one of our greatest long term threats. No shooters = no votes.

Bob

 

[turbo38gn]

I can understand what's happening, I believe it's not the club leadership that wants to make the rules, it's insurance companys making the rules. With that said, why would we abandon the club when it is not their fault. Give it time, support the club and get strong again to be able to fight another day. I believe the club spent their reserves fighting this case against the DA that so frivolously brought the charges against them. Don't let this push you away, they win if we don't support our clubs.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I have been involved in the purchase of several different liability policies for a gun club, and there are always questions about facilities; the presence or lack of a pond; membership or public rental; etc. I have never seen on that gets into minitua like "what caliber may be shot by what age" or "does someone under age 18 have a license that isn't even required in the vast majority of states in which the company sells policies". There is always the chance the underwriter got involved at a greater level of detail at Westfield due to the incident at the club.

While I don't discount that insurance company policies have impact on many corporate and club policies, I suspect there is a substantial amount of unfounded "because our insurance company requires it" assertions being made when no actual requirement was imposed as part of the policy contract.

 

[turbo38gn]

I have been involved in the purchase of several different liability policies for a gun club, and there are always questions about facilities; the presence or lack of a pond; membership or public rental; etc. I have never seen on that gets into minitua like "what caliber may be shot by what age" or "does someone under age 18 have a license that isn't even required in the vast majority of states in which the company sells policies". There is always the chance the underwriter got involved at a greater level of detail at Westfield due to the incident at the club.

While I don't discount that insurance company policies have impact on many corporate and club policies, I suspect there is a substantial amount of unfounded "because our insurance company requires it" assertions being made when no actual requirement was imposed as part of the policy contract.

Do you belong to the Westfield Club, were you in on the insurance policy purchases? If I remember correctly, the man I signed up with at the gun show, forget his name, maybe Frank, think he's the black powder expert, said they had a difficult time getting insurance.. If you are saying some guy on the BofD is just making up rules for the heck of it, then I I guess you were there... ?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Do you belong to the Westfield Club, were you in on the insurance policy purchases? If I remember correctly, the man I signed up with at the gun show, forget his name, maybe Frank, think he's the black powder expert, said they had a difficult time getting insurance.. If you are saying some guy on the BofD is just making up rules for the heck of it, then I I guess you were there... ?

No, and I made that clear. You even quoted my comment "There is always the chance the underwriter got involved at a greater level of detail at Westfield due to the incident at the club."

What I am saying is that claims "our insurance company imposed these conditions" may be true in some cases (and, in fact, is more likely to be true in this case that at most other clubs), but should be viewed with skepticism since there is a very common tendency to make claims up out of thin air. Often, such claims are "assumptions" rather than actual contract provisions, gain a little bit on each retelling, and are believed by the person making the claim.

In fact, when I was involved in reviewing insurance company policies for an existing club, I found that some claims my own club made in past years were indeed mis-interpretations. As a result, I won't believe any "because our insurance company said so" claims unless I read the policy myself. I will, however, believe "because I have authority over this facility and make the rules" claims as those are much easier to prove.

Claim history is one of the most important factors an insurance company uses when writing a policy, and I would be surprised if a club with a highly publicized death and ensuing criminal and civil litigation would have anything less than a very hard time getting a new policy or renewing their existing one.

I also am familiar enough with the club to know that their "no guests except for specific events" pre-dates the Westfield incident. I would not go so far as to say they made up the rule "for the heck of it", but I have never seen any club insurance policy that imposes a "no guests" requirement as a policy condition (but, I have only read policies from 3 companies in detail, so my perspective is limited).

It's also interesting to see how clubs will ignore policy provisions or limitations when it goes against what they really, really want to do. A case in point is the NRA club liability policy - which the last time I checked, specifically excluded hunting accidents. How many clubs with NRA liability insurance have an absolute provision on hunting on club property due to the insurance limitation?

 

[turbo38gn]

No problem Rob, just wanted to be clear. Again, I'm a believer in hangin tough with our brothers when the going gets tough. I'm looking for the positive in this and hoping the best. I feel if we all stick together on this, maybe we can make changes down the road to get it right.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

No problem Rob, just wanted to be clear. Again, I'm a believer in hangin tough with our brothers when the going gets tough. I'm looking for the positive in this and hoping the best. I feel if we all stick together on this, maybe we can make changes down the road to get it right.

Absolutely. In the end, everyone has the same goals - keeping clubs open, safe, and available for member use.

Also, even if it is not "insurance company imposed" does not mean, under the totality of the situation, it's a bad idea. Having every kid who shoots licensed may very well be a strategically necessary policy. It is not my position to judge what position on the risk/benefit curve that anyone or anything other than myself operates. It is perfectly legitimate for a club to conclude "given all the information, and legal risks, this is what we are willing to allow". In fact, that is what gun clubs elect directors to figure out.

 

[bob68]

The range policies that they put in place after the Machine gun tragedy drove me out. I made a post about the new range rules when they went into effect but I can't find it and I long since threw away the range rules so I am going to go from memory.

The upshot is that they turned club into a VERY kid unfriendly club. Kids have to be 18 or possess a FID to handle /use a long gun; anyone had to have a LTC to handle or use a handgun. Kids under the age of 18 had to be accompanied by an adult anywhere on the property.

Kids are the life blood of our future and I cannot be a part of a club that treats kids this way. I really enjoyed the club but I and many others left the club in drove when the put those rules into effect. I told them they were going to put those range rules into effect I would leave and I though many others would to. Again, this is from memory and may have changed by now hence my original question.

They used to have large white metal signs posted on the ranges with the rules.

Sadly, The Chicopee Stortsman's club is going down the same road. New on the membership application this year are caliber restrictions based on children's ages. If you are a member read the application for 2012.

I need to be part of a club that actually wants to grow our sport. A place where there is a guest policy that will allow my to introduce a non-member to the shooting sports and actually welcomes kids to the club to shoot. My nine year old neice shoots better than many adults I know; yet most clubs these days restrict what she can shoot and some clubs wouldn't even allow her to shoot anything.

This will eventually be the death of private gun ownership in this country. IMO this is one of our greatest long term threats. No shooters = no votes.

Bob

just a short 10 min ride down the road from the chicopee sportsmans club is the fairview sportsmans club. no asinine rules, no age limits, etc.
there are rules in place and we feel that they are enough. we tried to use common sense when we did a rules revision last summer and actually removed 2 or 3 rules that seem redundit and dumb to our committee. come and check us out......the clubs website is in my signature line. dues are reasonable too.....$40 for a senior membership and $50 for a family membership.

 

[bob68]

I have been involved in the purchase of several different liability policies for a gun club, and there are always questions about facilities; the presence or lack of a pond; membership or public rental; etc. I have never seen on that gets into minitua like "what caliber may be shot by what age" or "does someone under age 18 have a license that isn't even required in the vast majority of states in which the company sells policies". There is always the chance the underwriter got involved at a greater level of detail at Westfield due to the incident at the club.

While I don't discount that insurance company policies have impact on many corporate and club policies, I suspect there is a substantial amount of unfounded "because our insurance company requires it" assertions being made when no actual requirement was imposed as part of the policy contract.

at my club the insurance company told us that we cant allow anyone to ride horses on the club property due to a chance of the animal being spooked and the rider gets thrown and injured.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

just a short 10 min ride down the road from the chicopee sportsmans club is the fairview sportsmans club. no asinine rules, no age limits, etc.
there are rules in place and we feel that they are enough. we tried to use common sense when we did a rules revision last summer and actually removed 2 or 3 rules that seem redundit and dumb to our committee. come and check us out......the clubs website is in my signature line. dues are reasonable too.....$40 for a senior membership and $50 for a family membership.

I am going to go out and take a look at Fairview club. It is very close to the Chicopee club where I am currently a member.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[GunGrey]

Don't forget about Springfield sportsmens club in monson. They also have a 300yd range and a better policy than westfield. Also that namesack in ware or palmer I'm not sure they have 300 also