1 MOA guarantee

[peterk123]

Watched an interesting vid from backfire.tv today. The 1 moa guarantee.

He looked into the fine print of the guarantees. Basically, it's not the first three shots, or one shot to warm the barrel then take three, or some other consistent method. If they could get the gun to have three shots (at any point) to do a 1moa, then it passed. Not the end of the world, but interesting nonetheless.

He also put out a challenge at his local range to anybody interested to shoot a 1moa group with their gun. Nobody could do it. And based on all the data he keeps with all the guns he tests, he found the average moa is 1.83.

I like his vids. He puts out some informative stuff.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I think I saw that. I'm betting most guys will never test the 1MOA guarantee. They'll be "honest" and claim wind or their own abilities to not shoot it at 1MOA. Contrary to popular belief, excepting 99% of the shooters on NES, 1MOA is not very easy to accomplish.

(Funny aside - There were guys on "another gun board" that could shoot 1MOA iron sights with milsurp. Even when my eyes were the BEST they ever were, there is no way I could create a repeatable hold like that and see 1" at 100 yds.)

 

[vicorjh]

Nobody could do it.

That's a bit of a surprise.

Beyond the car shoot phenomena, I believe that there are plenty of folk on NES that have the equipment and capability to achieve 1 minute relatively consistently from a supported position. Challenge becomes less than a minute or half minute consistently. Effort is probably something exponential as groups shrink.

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Link?

 

[Road_Clam]

Im confused, virtually every NES'r has a "tack driver" rifle that shoots cloverleafs all day long ??

Everyone has that one random range trip and shoots 1/2 moa. Now if you want to impress me show me 1/2 MOA consistently throughout the year, AND is verified by other shooters. The F Class competition guys get it done and never brag.

 

[peterk123]

Link?

View: https://youtu.be/zK-Nkwl6ZQU?si=_PgoKunVczPQL0UI

 

[LuvDog]

His challenge was for factory hunting rifles... if he opened up his challenge to custom rifles or even "factory" match/target rifles then I think he'd be handing out a few $50 bills.

 

[LittleCalm]

His challenge was for factory hunting rifles... if he opened up his challenge to custom rifles or even "factory" match/target rifles then I think he'd be handing out a few $50 bills.

+1


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pKpaC_nBZc

 

[usp45ct]

I am thinking 1MOA at 100 yards. I have 3 rifles that will do that. 2 I have done it with as the 3rd is capable but I have not taken it out yet.

None are just ordinary hunting rifles though, depending on your definition of a hunting rifle.


As for Dennis’s assertion of 1MOA with iron sights on MilSurp…nope not me …ever, though there are some amazingly accomplished people out there. I am sure someone out there , even on NES can do it. Shit sure they don’t hand out that President’s One Hundred for nothing special. Those are accomplished shooters that earn the President’s One Hundred.

 

[groundscrapers]

I still stand by my comment on his video. I can consistently shoot sub moa with the plurality of my rifles.

 

[Dennis in MA]

That's a bit of a surprise.

Beyond the car shoot phenomena, I believe that there are plenty of folk on NES that have the equipment and capability to achieve 1 minute relatively consistently from a supported position. Challenge becomes less than a minute or half minute consistently. Effort is probably something exponential as groups shrink.

I think it is similar to the old gun mags. They'd take their BEST 5-shot group, throw out the farthest and call THAT their good group. Wait, what??? Why are you throwing out a flier??? Was it you or the gun? That was your BEST BEST group but you have to remove a flier.

As humans, we are not as harsh of critics of ourselves as we should be sometimes. There's always a "oh, well that one don't count because. . . . "

Can people shoot sub-MOA? Yes. Is it a degrading skill set? Yes. Does it require specialize equipment? Yes.

 

[peterk123]

Keep in mind that most people on this forum are avid shooters and it's one of their primary pastimes. I have been to enough gun ranges one week prior to the season opener. Can say with certainty the majority are not even close to being able to do it.

 

[Tackdriver VillenTactical]

These are with three different rifles. They each do this all day long.

Dave

 

[Broc]

Im confused, virtually every NES'r has a "tack driver" rifle that shoots cloverleafs all day long ??

Everyone has that one random range trip and shoots 1/2 moa. Now if you want to impress me show me 1/2 MOA consistently throughout the year, AND is verified by other shooters. The F Class competition guys get it done and never brag.

My Tikka and CZ shoot consistent sub MOA. CZ shoots 1/2 MOA and Tikka 1/4 MOA. With my reloads. If I could put them on a vice and remove the human element (me), they would shoot better, guaranteed.

Flew to Michigan, went to the range to make sure the zero was good, still shot sub MOA in 33 degree weather and sub MOA in 80 degree weather. The Tikka ruined my life, I hate all other rifles.

My buddy's Tikka also shoots under 1 MOA with my reloads, even though they are loaded for my rifle. We tested them this week, shot 4 groups of 4 shots, all sub 1".

 

[Cuz]

Heck, why waste all that ammo.
I can shoot a sub moa group with just 1 shot. I don’t need 3 or 4 shots to do it…

 

[Road_Clam]

My Del

My Tikka and CZ shoot consistent sub MOA. CZ shoots 1/2 MOA and Tikka 1/4 MOA. With my reloads. If I could put them on a vice and remove the human element (me), they would shoot better, guaranteed.

Flew to Michigan, went to the range to make sure the zero was good, still shot sub MOA in 33 degree weather and sub MOA in 80 degree weather. The Tikka ruined my life, I hate all other rifles.

My buddy's Tikka also shoots under 1 MOA with my reloads, even though they are loaded for my rifle. We tested them this week, shot 4 groups of 4 shots, all sub 1".

Gaging MOA accuracy shooting at 50 yds doesn't count....

 

[snax]

I think it is similar to the old gun mags. They'd take their BEST 5-shot group, throw out the farthest and call THAT their good group. Wait, what??? Why are you throwing out a flier??? Was it you or the gun? That was your BEST BEST group but you have to remove a flier.

As humans, we are not as harsh of critics of ourselves as we should be sometimes. There's always a "oh, well that one don't count because. . . . "

Can people shoot sub-MOA? Yes. Is it a degrading skill set? Yes. Does it require specialize equipment? Yes.

I go to the range and send the target out 5 yards use a bench rest and I'll still get a flier after 10 shots.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Honestly, with modern tooling if a company isnt producing factory guns that shoot at least a minute they are garbage.

Savage, Ruger, Springfield, Sig, etc. Not great brands. All are producing dozens of rifles a day, almost all of them will shoot a minute or better (for a while anyways). Its just not that much of a big deal anymore. Its like toyota giving you a 10,000 mile engine warranty.

 

[Sweeney]

Most of my rifles shoot consistently to 'point of impact'... well within 1MOA (Mile of Acre)

 

[PappyM3]

…

Gaging MOA accuracy shooting at 50 yds doesn't count....

Why does 100 yards count and 50 yards doesn’t? Neither will have wind as much of an influence for any centerfire cartridge.

 

[Cuz]

Why does 100 yards count and 50 yards doesn’t? Neither will have wind as much of an influence for any centerfire cartridge.

Well, if we concede 50, then someone will come along and want their 1/4” group at 25 yds to count too. Then, to be fair, we will also have to concede that shooting an 1/8” group at 12.5 yds is also “moa”. Gotta draw the line somewhere, and apparently, when the vote was taken, 100 yds was the clear favorite. I was absent that day, so I can’t tell you how everyone on the internet voted, or who counted the ballots.

 

[Mountain]

Most if not all of the liars talk smack about sub MOA groups but they don't post targets. At times I suspect there are a few that cheat when they do post targets, particularly those who seem clueless about load development and good technique while boasting how easy it is to just plop down their carbine with a bipod and start sh!tting out MOA groups. There was a guy on the old M14 forum that I'd swear was cheating when he posted targets on a online postal match. He'd post an OK target but when others would post better he would always somehow shoot significantly better and would boast that he "just knows what he's doing". There was another guy who would both kick his ass and share very helpful load info and other tips.

While I think it is possible to shoot 1 MOA groups with an iron sight milsurp, it would be extremely difficult. With a lot of load development work and/or work to tweak the rifles, best I have ever shot is 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 MOA and only on a day when my eyesight was at its best. I might have shot an iron sight 1 MOA group with a match AR- I'll have to look, but never with old wood stocked milsurps. My best milsurp groups are from a legit 1903 National Match and a 1903A3 that required a lot of time on stock fitment.

 

[Mountain]

My Tikka and CZ shoot consistent sub MOA. CZ shoots 1/2 MOA and Tikka 1/4 MOA. With my reloads. If I could put them on a vice and remove the human element (me), they would shoot better, guaranteed.

Flew to Michigan, went to the range to make sure the zero was good, still shot sub MOA in 33 degree weather and sub MOA in 80 degree weather. The Tikka ruined my life, I hate all other rifles.

My buddy's Tikka also shoots under 1 MOA with my reloads, even though they are loaded for my rifle. We tested them this week, shot 4 groups of 4 shots, all sub 1".

I think some Bergara rifles will perform similarly. Anyway, that guy might have been shelling out a few 50's if people showed up with Tikkas.

I inherited an older post-64 Winchester 70 in 7mm Mag. Typical wood stocked hunting rifle and fairly light. Shoot 10 rounds of full boat 7mm Mag and your shoulder will be black the next morning. Even with careful load development it was a 1.75 MOA rifle. I'm getting CRS and can't remember if I free floated the barrel or just applied some fore end pressure, but after some stock fitting and a Timney install it will shoot 0.8 MOA or better.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

I really liked that Backfire video, good dose of reality. The stipulation that it was to be attempted with factory hunting rifles was a necessary one.

If you want to know how your system shoots do a 10 round group at the rate you would shoot it for whatever your discipline is. Anything short of this is just cherry-picking, IMO.

My custom comp guns, using this method, usually run around 1”, sometimes more, sometimes less. Gotta be realistic about these things.

 

[Broc]

I think some Bergara rifles will perform similarly. Anyway, that guy might have been shelling out a few 50's if people showed up with Tikkas.

I inherited an older post-64 Winchester 70 in 7mm Mag. Typical wood stocked hunting rifle and fairly light. Shoot 10 rounds of full boat 7mm Mag and your shoulder will be black the next morning. Even with careful load development it was a 1.75 MOA rifle. I'm getting CRS and can't remember if I free floated the barrel or just applied some fore end pressure, but after some stock fitting and a Timney install it will shoot 0.8 MOA or better.

I didn't watch the full video. Did he allow people to use ammo that was tested to be accurate in the rifle?

I have ammo that shoots 2 MOA in one rifle and 1 MOA in others and most manufacturers will specify "match ammo".

Even with match ammo there can be differences because some people try to go cheaper, for example: there are plenty of videos of people getting 2-3 MOA with 6.5 because they use light bullets, around 120gr. But when switching to the more expensive 143gr match ammo, the rifles perform much better.

Another thing is, you need to test the rifle on a vice without moving it. The second you put a human behind it, unless that human is Erik Cortina, you can't tell if it is the rifle or the person. The factory guarantees the rifle can do it, not the person. Even someone like Cortina, remove his fancy rest, add your average bipod to the rifle and his groups will open up a bit. But the rifle is clearly capable.

Remove as many variables as possible.

Another example, my friends Tikka with my reloads. I shot 4 groups sub MOA. His group was around 1.2 MOA. was it the rifle or the shooter? ... I will say the shooter since I proved 4 times the rifle was capable.

 

[Mountain]

I didn't watch the full video. Did he allow people to use ammo that was tested to be accurate in the rifle?

I have ammo that shoots 2 MOA in one rifle and 1 MOA in others and most manufacturers will specify "match ammo".

Even with match ammo there can be differences because some people try to go cheaper, for example: there are plenty of videos of people getting 2-3 MOA with 6.5 because they use light bullets, around 120gr. But when switching to the more expensive 143gr match ammo, the rifles perform much better.

Another thing is, you need to test the rifle on a vice without moving it. The second you put a human behind it, unless that human is Erik Cortina, you can't tell if it is the rifle or the person. The factory guarantees the rifle can do it, not the person. Even someone like Cortina, remove his fancy rest, add your average bipod to the rifle and his groups will open up a bit. But the rifle is clearly capable.

Remove as many variables as possible.

Another example, my friends Tikka with my reloads. I shot 4 groups sub MOA. His group was around 1.2 MOA. was it the rifle or the shooter? ... I will say the shooter since I proved 4 times the rifle was capable.

Beyond that, factory match accuracy can vary from batch to batch. I had a few boxes of Winchester Match 6.5 CM 140's w/ same batch number that were as good or better than my hand loads. Haven't seen a box that good since.

 

[PappyM3]

…
While I think it is possible to shoot 1 MOA groups with an iron sight milsurp, it would be extremely difficult. With a lot of load development work and/or work to tweak the rifles, best I have ever shot is 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 MOA and only on a day when my eyesight was at its best. I might have shot an iron sight 1 MOA group with a match AR- I'll have to look, but never with old wood stocked milsurps. My best milsurp groups are from a legit 1903 National Match and a 1903A3 that required a lot of time on stock fitment.

Mil-surp would be extremely difficult, I’m sure. Obviously, old milsurp may be different, but with my issued M4, M855, and ACOG, I could get down to 1.25-1.5 MOA when actually checking for groups and I was very happy with that issued rifle/ammo combo.

Irons are tricky. With my competition Service Rifle, back when it had irons, I could get 3/4 MOA groups if I kept my cheek weld. But I had a problem with ever so slightly changing my sight picture if I picked my head up and brought it back down. So I’d have another 3/4 MOA group, but maybe shifted 1/4-1/2 inch over on the target. I blame the AR’s front sight guards . Though, it happens with other iron sights too, and the multi-group spread is evident with 2-3 MOA surplus guns just as much with match guns.

That problem is greatly reduced with a circular enclosure over the front sight so that one can easily center the circle in the aperture circle.

Oh, and my “3/4 MOA” groups, whether irons or optics, grow to 1.5-2 MOA when I do rapid fire stages with 1 shot per second. I just can’t hold as tight.

 

[dingbat]

Why does 100 yards count and 50 yards doesn’t? Neither will have wind as much of an influence for any centerfire cartridge.

The bullet’s deviation is likely exponential so 1/2” deviation at 50yds wouldn’t necessarily translate to 1” at 100yds.

 

[PappyM3]

The bullet’s deviation is likely exponential so 1/2” deviation at 50yds wouldn’t necessarily translate to 1” at 100yds.

If you remove wind, how is a bullet’s dispersion not linear?

Muzzle velocity SD can have a non-linear effect on group size as distance increases because the drop from gravity is not linear, but that’s not going to manifest itself much between 50 and 100 yards. Example: if you have a spicy round that’s 50 fps faster than the average, the vertical dispersion still won’t be even a tenth of an inch. SD and extreme spread won’t have a measurable effect on group size at 100 yards or 50.

You can even get valid group extreme spread numbers from 25 yards. The issue there is that the holes likely overlap so much that it might be hard to obtain other data about the group. It also might be hard to get extreme spread data if the group is REALLY tight. Just because of the fidelity of measuring the holes in the target.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

The bullet’s deviation is likely exponential so 1/2” deviation at 50yds wouldn’t necessarily translate to 1” at 100yds.

Sans environment it’s linear. The reason 50y is tough is a lack of fidelity. In theory if you can measure accurately enough you could zero at 10’ and get much the same data. There is something to be said for changes bullets experience mid flight.

Like, you know, Hornady A-max