1 Punch Death, 3 Months In Prison

[Mike-Mike]

While I'd love to believe that this would be true in practice, I think in reality you'd have to spend a lot of time debunking the prosecutions claims that you're a gun nut-loose cannon-martial artist-badass who ain't afraid of nuthin. If you're painted as a dude who can defend himself, the jury will immediately doubt your need to act in self defense in a case like this.

Agree totally. Just speaking on the burden of proof in general. This case has too many unknowns for all of our internet Jurors.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Last year I blew out a disk in my neck on the only vertebrae that allows your head to turn right and left. It pinched a nerve paralyzing my right hand and required surgery .

Now I am left with a major weak point in my neck. Something as simple as a punch can kill me instantly.

This changes the Disparity of force and you would (most likely) not be expected to take a roll on the ground with an equal sized guy.

 

[M1911]

And how do you know this ?

Did you watch the same video that I did?

 

[M1911]

Sorry, This is incorrect.

If you believe someone is about to cause serous harm you don't have to wait for them to do so. I understand the case is much cleaner if you wait for them to throw the punch first. But if BG was the Mike Tyson would you wait for the him to punch first?

Would a reasonable person, knowing what he knew at the time, believe he was in immediate danger? The guy was behind him, mouthing off, with his hands in his pockets. Do you think that rises to immediate danger? I don't. Was the guy behind him in a fighting stance? Was he really a threat or just being a jerk?

Just because someone is mouthing off at you doesn't mean you can haul off and hit him.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Would a reasonable person, knowing what he knew at the time, believe he was in immediate danger? The guy was behind him, mouthing off, with his hands in his pockets. Do you think that rises to immediate danger? I don't. Was the guy behind him in a fighting stance?

Just because someone is mouthing off at you doesn't mean you can haul off and hit him.

You are correct. I was not referring to this case, just in general that the words "About to be attacked" show up an awful lot in the Jurors instructions for ( MA ) self-defense. What you believe is about to happen is as important as what actually happens.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Would a reasonable person, knowing what he knew at the time, believe he was in immediate danger? The guy was behind him, mouthing off, with his hands in his pockets. Do you think that rises to immediate danger? I don't. Was the guy behind him in a fighting stance? Was he really a threat or just being a jerk?

Just because someone is mouthing off at you doesn't mean you can haul off and hit him.

We also saw 5 seconds of footage. We don't know the story. Should the guy keep walking and go outside if he is there will his 11yo niece? We didn't see enough. If the BG punched him in the Bathroom and said "I just got out of jail and I need to go back, I am going to kill you in front of you family" Would that change what he believed was about to happen? We don't know.

 

[M1911]

You are correct. I was not referring to this case, just in general that the words "About to be attacked" show up an awful lot in the Jurors instructions for ( MA ) self-defense. What you believe is about to happen is as important as what actually happens.

Yes, it is. But as TWtommers pointed out, if you throw the first punch at a guy who is just mouthing off, good luck explaining to the judge that you felt in danger.

 

[Wadcutter]

I saw an incident similar to this happen in college. At a bar a kid gets into it with a drunk townie, townie decks the kid, causing him to fall back and crack his head. Dead. Really sad story, as the kid was a stand up dude and the townie was, well, not.

I'm not sure how "uncommon" this is, but it's certainly a case of the planets aligning I think. Really, what are the odds?

I don't think it's that rare. FBI lists 728 murders in 2011 with hands and feet.

I worked with a guy who killed a man in a bar fight with his fists alone. I think he served 4 years in Walpole for it.

He said he didn't mean to do it and he was a personable guy.

 

[M1911]

We also saw 5 seconds of footage. We don't know the story. Should the guy keep walking and go outside if he is there will his 11yo niece?

Then turn around, face him, keep your hands up, yell "stop, leave me alone, help, someone call the police..."

What the guy did was unnecessary. It might have become necessary shortly thereafter, but at that moment in time, it was unnecessary, and now he's paying the price.

 

[Wadcutter]

We also saw 5 seconds of footage. We don't know the story. Should the guy keep walking and go outside if he is there will his 11yo niece? We didn't see enough. If the BG punched him in the Bathroom and said "I just got out of jail and I need to go back, I am going to kill you in front of you family" Would that change what he believed was about to happen? We don't know.

Ah, this did go to court so it's not like what happened is a complete mystery. Hawkins testified that Massie was basically a racist drunk who "tapped" him in the bathroom. If Massie threatened him with bodily harm you would think he would have said so in his testimony.

 

[maxdogk911]

What this guy did was wrong. Bottom line is he killed another human being, who at the time was not making any physical threats to him. He should have gotten more time than he did. Not probation, jail time. If we all went out and when a drunk (or not) starts to bugs us, we just haul off and hit that person. Come on, really ? What the hell has the world come down to. There was nothing in this video that justified the actions of murder. Sucker punches have always been for punks and cowards.

 

[W.E.C]

Come in low, speak softly and carry a big stick !

aint that is what happened?

 

[OB1Kenobi]

And how do you know this ?

+1

it's just BS paranoia and fear mongering.

again, IF you act in any threatening manner towards me, I am doing to drop you. end of discussion. i'm not going to wait until you get within arms reach or throw a punch.

if you call me a racial slur from across the street, that's different, i'll keep walking / running / biking or whatever i was doing. however, IF you pursue me in any way, all bets are off. how eFing hard is that for you to understand?

we used to have these issues all the time "in the hood"...

 

[ASHDUMP]

I need a pic of the guy who got clocked so I can make my decision on this matter. I profile everything....

 

[Tater]

good thing it wasn't the other way around white guy hits black guy.... Hate crime mandatory sentence.

 

[Terminator03]

Oh, come on, Mike. Seriously.

The man touched him. Did he hit him? No. Did he try to punch him? No. He touched him. He mouthed off at him. He followed him.

The man was "about to cause harm to him" with his hands in his pockets? Look, the creep was trying to provoke a fight and he did. But Hawkins allowed himself to be provoked and he threw the first punch. If the creep threw the first punch that would have been a very different situation. But he didn't.

If you want to claim self defense, you must show that you did nothing to escalate the situation and that you tried to get out of it. Turning and throwing the first punch certainly did escalate the situation.

Did the creep deserve a beat down? Sure. But that is not legal.

My ego will better survive walking away from a jerk than 3 months in prison. YMMV.

I partially agree with what you say here only because of the potential legal ramifications, loss of LTC for life, etc., but disagree for another reason. You cite the coach for "throwing the first punch" as being wrong because he allowed himself to be provoked. This may be true, but in the real world, if you do not strike first, and fast, you often will never have a chance when someone is intent on causing you harm regardless of physical size. I'm torn on this because I know from experience both as a witness to, and being involved in real, no rules fights that the guy who comes in fast, and hard first is generally the victor, and if you give someone else the opportunity to hit you first, you may end up like that dead guy in this story. ymmv...

 

[mikem317]

Assault fists.

 

[Terminator03]

I have to admit that I am really shocked by many of the replies in this thread stating that this guy should be sentenced harder, and that this is clearly murder, etc. WTF? Did I somehow stumble onto the Lizzy Warren Moonbat forum or something? This guy might have exercised poor judgement, but murder, come on! Do any of you saying this really believe that this guy INTENDED to kill that other guy? If the other guy had a glass jaw, or some other issue, then this was simply Darwin doing his thing, and that guy poked the bull and got the horns, plain and simple. I feel like I stepped into the Twilight Zone!

- - - Updated - - -

Assault fists.

You're right, something must be done! Clearly this guy used a high capacity assault fist!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sorry, This is incorrect.

If you believe someone is about to cause serous harm you don't have to wait for them to do so. I understand the case is much cleaner if you wait for them to throw the punch first. But if BG was the Mike Tyson would you wait for the him to punch first?

Only partially true. In order to prove justification, the general standard is not only that you believed the subject was about to cause death or serious harm, but that a "reasonable person" who had the same totality of information that you did would arrive at that conclusion as well.

If the guy had already touched him (legally considered assault)

The "any non-accidental and unauthorized touching" standard of assault in MA is almost certainly not the national standard.

 

[JSnaxx]

So after someone puts their hands on me.... and i try walking away... then they walk up behind me
.... i shouldn't assume he's a threat? The defendant might not have seen the guy had his hands in hia pockets... he turned, saw a hostile a**h*** that had closed the distance and was well within his space... Sucks the punk died but this guy didn't deserve a felony.

 

[Climbnsink]

If what we saw on the video is the standard for punching people I could knock people out all day long in any midsize city. What went on when the dicks were out we'll never know, do people really hassle strangers in public restrooms? Dunno the truth but my impression is he got off easy.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Only partially true. In order to prove justification, the general standard is not only that you believed the subject was about to cause death or serious harm, but that a "reasonable person" who had the same totality of information that you did would arrive at that conclusion as well.

Exactly

And in order for the state to disprove self-defense they (the state) must prove one of the following:

1. Prove you didn't believe they were being attacked or about to be attacked. = Mind reading

2. Prove you didn't do everything reasonable to avoid physical contact before resorting to force. = Reasonable Man standard

3. Prove you used more force than was reasonably necessary in the circumstances. = Reasonable man standard

 

[MAGG]

i seem to remember a similar case in weymouth a few years ago at a Mary Lous News where two customers got into an argument in the parking lot. One guy clocked the other, dropped him and he hit his head on the ground and died....I dont remember ever hearing the outcome of that one

 

[Hustler One]

FAR from a sucker punch.

 

[IrishGun]

He was charged with involuntary manslaughter. NOT murder. Completely different......

 

[Terminator03]

So after someone puts their hands on me.... and i try walking away... then they walk up behind me
.... i shouldn't assume he's a threat? The defendant might not have seen the guy had his hands in hia pockets... he turned, saw a hostile a**h*** that had closed the distance and was well within his space... Sucks the punk died but this guy didn't deserve a felony.

To me personally, I would automatically see someone advancing on me with hands in pocket(s) as a definite threat and act accordingly. This is because I personally always carry a knife clipped into my pocket, and have many times pocket carried a handgun (in my pocket) as many here do regularly. Are any of you defending the victim going to wait until he draws a gun, or knife on you to react? In my opinion if someone pursues me after I walk away and tell him to GTFO, then it's game on. To think otherwise could get YOU killed.