21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

[Rat187]

Who Mike Glover is? He’s a former SF/Delta guy. Not a cop though.

Correct, but he teaches courses for cops on dynamic entry, safety and shooter response tactics for free.

 

[Dadstoys]

Personally, I believe nobody at this point. But, according to Mike, the lie was in the omission of that vital information. Something like: "There is a lone shooter barricaded in these adjoining rooms." and leaving off "Oh, and BTW, we think he murdered dozens of children when he went in, so there are probably dozens of dead and dying children in there right now."

They are going to have a hard time making that narrative stick when there was a teacher and a kid calling from inside the classroom.

 

[Rat187]

The door to classroom room 111 was open from the beginning, they never checked.

 

[Atlantis]

Meh. Evan Hafer and Mark Milley are SF guys, too. I've known too many Green Berets to be all that impressed by them, absent other qualfications.

This guy could be right on the money, but not because he's a "former SF guy."

I’m basing my opinion mostly on the interview he did on the Shawn Ryan show. That and his collaborations with GBRS group. But yeah, I hear ya.

 

[Junior314]

Why would anyone believe anything coming from that department? They have done nothing but lie and obstruct from day 1.

 

[flippinfleck]

Let's say they didn't know within minutes of entering the school that there were still kids in the classrooms

The security video shows that to be a false premise, they do not get the benefit of doubt here. Unless every officer in that hallway was deaf, the knew and did nothing.

 

[Picton]

Let's say they didn't know within minutes of entering the school that there were still kids in the classrooms...

I think most of us agree this is not the case at all (I know that's not what you're saying, T-Unit). This narrative that "the cops didn't know!" is bullshit of the highest possible order.

Of course they knew. Absolutely they knew. Even without the screams and the 911 calls, kids had been cascading out the doors and windows, running frantically for safety with their teachers as the "responders" arrived. They knew. Pretending ANYONE in the hallway was ignorant of the dying kids is just an attempt to try to make ourselves feel better about the cowards who chose not to go in. For over an hour.

Again, I'm not giving BORTAC a pass here. They didn't just show up over an hour late and immediately burst in. They'd been in that hallway for awhile before they decided to breach. They knew. They damn well knew.

...police responding to school shootings they often fail to act...

This, though, is not supported by the facts. Almost every school shooter since Columbine has faced an armed police response as soon as the first officer arrives. In assuming there's a pandemic of cop failure in these incidents, you're letting yourself be influenced by what happened in THREE high-profile shootings. Most of the others don't go down like that: almost always, the responding officers don't wait. They usually go charging in.

 

[meh]

They are going to have a hard time making that narrative stick when there was a teacher and a kid calling from inside the classroom.

The issue you are commenting on was specifically and exclusively about why BORTAC, some guys who arrived on scene some 10’s of minutes after it started, waited some 10’s of minutes before going in. We’ve already established that the local cops in charge knew. The story is that BORTAC were not given the information that children and teachers were lying there in the golden hour. Like you, I have my doubts about the story. I was expecting to hear, may still hear, that the chief didn’t give them the green light.

 

[paul73]

claimed to be a latest update:

“Systemic failures” in Uvalde shooting went far beyond local police, Texas House report details

The most extensive account of the shooting to date says that after the Uvalde schools police chief failed to take charge, better-equipped departments should have stepped up to fill the leadership void.

www.texastribune.org

 

[paul73]

They usually go charging in

ah-huh.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyPTePoiI3M&t=453s

and then showing what cops do best: 'he fired at me!'
military, swat, spec ops are not fecking cops. here below are cops. ticket writers and parent's tasers.

View: https://youtu.be/OyPTePoiI3M?t=520

the white shirt a**h*** who so heroically lead the retreat effort - 3 a**h***s with guns against one teen with a rifle - it would be an instant win, with some potential wounds, but it would be a win. but the white shirt had other priorities and swiftly made it past the safe corner.

the fact that 2 other a**h***s followed him - should haunt them till then die.

 

[Picton]

ah-huh.

...did you read the rest of my post?

I'm not talking about what the cops did in Uvalde. I'm talking about what they do in most school shootings.

 

[paul73]

...did you read the rest of my post?
I'm not talking about what the cops did in Uvalde. I'm talking about what they do in most school shootings.

there is hardly such a thing as 'most shootings'. i guess some just get luckier than others.

 

[Fixxah]

Worth the watch, but very disturbing. The description of the additional one shot, four shots, and 911 call from a child amongst the carnage a LONG time after the start of the incident is sickening. Training or not, I don't know how these guys stood around so long doing nothing. The first group of guys is in the building 3 minutes after the shooter and aside from #1 guy making a couple
of attempts with his pistol, the actual neutralizing of the suspect doesn't happen for one hour and 14 minutes, even as additional shots ring out occasionally and everyone who got shot is bleeding out?

I suspect there will be some suicides down the road...

1:11:26 ubtil they killed the scumbag.

 

[Picton]

Grrrrrr.

"There was an overall lackadaisical approach by law enforcement at the scene. For many, this was because they were given and relied on inaccurate information. For others, they had enough information to know better."

The whitewash begins in the official report. Anyone in that hallway who was "given and relied on inaccurate information" only relied upon it because they WANTED to rely upon it. As an excuse for not going in.

I really should stop reading this nonsense.

 

[Lowbird]

View: https://twitter.com/crabcrawler1/status/1548762121789489154?t=bMG8JTch2LVJbvDJTo7DTQ&s=19

 

[weekendracer]

Emphasis mine.

When the videos are edited and annotated as such, there is zero question as to whether they knew kids were alive and being systematically slaughtered.

No words to describe the cowardice involved here. These "men" should do the right thing and suck start a shotgun out in an open field.

My point is, it's conjecture at this point. Let me hear the unedited video, and I'll pile on.

 

[flippinfleck]

My point is, it's conjecture at this point. Let me hear the unedited video, and I'll pile on.

The edited video says it was edited to remove the screams of children. You honestly think that the fully unedited will make its way to the general public?

 

[Picton]

The edited video says it was edited to remove the screams of children. You honestly think that the fully unedited will make its way to the general public?

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, isn't it?

When screams need to be edited out, it means two things:

1. There were screams.
2. They could be heard.

If the camera at the head of the hall could pick them up from the classrooms at the end of the hall, it stands to reason that everyone IN the hall could hear them. That's in addition to the undisputed evidence that some of the cops were very vocal in their objections to staying out of the room, even pointing out to their superiors that they knew wounded kids were in there.

I understand @weekendracer and his need to believe the organization to which he devoted so many years of service did NOT make an egregious and shameful mistake. I felt the same way when I read about a trooper from my old unit not acquitting himself well in Afghanistan, bringing shame on the regiment. So I get it.

But the conclusion is inescapable: the "men" in that hallway, from all the LE organizations involved, knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Admitting that is the first step to fixing it.

 

[weekendracer]

The edited video says it was edited to remove the screams of children. You honestly think that the fully unedited will make its way to the general public?

I'm saying, I could see both sides of it. You think someone working for a news crew wouldn't 'exaggerate' a little to get clicks?

I've said it before, "I" was the story a couple of times in my career. While the story read like a James Bond/Bourne flick episode, it's not what really went down.

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, isn't it?

When screams need to be edited out, it means two things:

1. There were screams.
2. They could be heard.

If the camera at the head of the hall could pick them up from the classrooms at the end of the hall, it stands to reason that everyone IN the hall could hear them. That's in addition to the undisputed evidence that some of the cops were very vocal in their objections to staying out of the room, even pointing out to their superiors that they knew wounded kids were in there.

I understand @weekendracer and his need to believe the organization to which he devoted so many years of service did NOT make an egregious and shameful mistake. I felt the same way when I read about a trooper from my old unit not acquitting himself well in Afghanistan, bringing shame on the regiment. So I get it.

But the conclusion is inescapable: the "men" in that hallway, from all the LE organizations involved, knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Admitting that is the first step to fixing it.

It's not even my old org, at least a couple of them did the right thing. It's more how the hell could ANYONE sit and listen to kids dying and NOT do anything to stop it? Screw my agency, I'm disgusted in men/people in general if that's the case.

 

[flippinfleck]

I'm saying, I could see both sides of it. You think someone working for a news crew wouldn't 'exaggerate' a little to get clicks?

I've said it before, "I" was the story a couple of times in my career. While the story read like a James Bond/Bourne flick episode, it's not what really went down.

It's not even my old org, at least a couple of them did the right thing. It's more how the hell could ANYONE sit and listen to kids dying and NOT do anything to stop it? Screw my agency, I'm disgusted in men/people in general if that's the case.

Good question.

 

[Picton]

I'm disgusted in men/people in general if that's the case.

I am too. But based on what I know of school shooter responses (annual training on it for a couple decades, and the training has evolved as the protocols have changed), there's not enough lipstick in the world to put on this pig. No caveats, no "let's wait and get the full story;" the full story can't be anything but repugnant. Can't.

 

[weekendracer]

I am too. But based on what I know of school shooter responses (annual training on it for a couple decades, and the training has evolved as the protocols have changed), there's not enough lipstick in the world to put on this pig. No caveats, no "let's wait and get the full story;" the full story can't be anything but repugnant. Can't.

I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm right there. I'm trying to figure out just how deep the failure was. I have pretty significant insight on how things 'should' have gone. I've said it multiple times, nothing, and I mean nothing about this makes any sense. When things don't make sense, 'something' else is going on. I can't wrap my brain around the 'something' here.

Somehow some former SF guy has inside info, if he has a buddy on the inside, that buddy is 'stick a fork in him' done. Would a 'buddy' do that to a friend for clicks? Maybe. A video gets released, edited, for what ever reason. I see it all, understand nothing. This thread is getting as off the rails as the Ukraine thread when it comes to 'information' you can't trust.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, isn't it?

When screams need to be edited out, it means two things:

1. There were screams.
2. They could be heard.

If the camera at the head of the hall could pick them up from the classrooms at the end of the hall, it stands to reason that everyone IN the hall could hear them. That's in addition to the undisputed evidence that some of the cops were very vocal in their objections to staying out of the room, even pointing out to their superiors that they knew wounded kids were in there.

I understand @weekendracer and his need to believe the organization to which he devoted so many years of service did NOT make an egregious and shameful mistake. I felt the same way when I read about a trooper from my old unit not acquitting himself well in Afghanistan, bringing shame on the regiment. So I get it.

But the conclusion is inescapable: the "men" in that hallway, from all the LE organizations involved, knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Admitting that is the first step to fixing it.

Hand sanitizer.

The screams and crying of a school full of children, terrorized, begging for their little lives and lying in pools of blood, dying.

The police, sworn to protect and serve these children, stop, hang back, and use hand sanitizer.

The soundtrack of the screams and cries of those helpless, dying terrorized children should be played on loud speakers at the execution of those cops. And it should the aired on prime time.

After a proper trial of course.

 

[weekendracer]

The soundtrack of the screams and cries of those helpless, dying terrorized children should be played on loud speakers at the execution of those cops. And it should the aired on prime time.

I agree. The world needs to know.

 

[meh]

But the conclusion is inescapable: the "men" in that hallway, from all the LE organizations involved, knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Admitting that is the first step to fixing it.

When was the last scream heard? If you can't answer that question, explain why your logic still applies to an organization that did not arrive for 30 minutes.

 

[Picton]

When was the last scream heard? If you can't answer that question, explain why your logic still applies to an organization that did not arrive for 30 minutes.

"Hey. We're here. What's up?"

"Guy with a gun in a classroom."

There's only one response to that, according to EVERY LE playbook since Columbine. Only one. You go in and get the shooter.

 

[meh]

"Hey. We're here. What's up?"

"Guy with a gun in a classroom."

There's only one response to that, according to EVERY LE playbook since Columbine. Only one. You go in and get the shooter.

That's a complete non-answer. When was the last scream prior to the breach heard?

 

[Picton]

That's a complete non-answer. When was the last scream prior to the breach heard?

I don't know and I don't care.

Do you absolve any of those cops for NOT going in after the shooter? I certainly do not.

Just what do you think cops are told to do about school shooters?

 

[safetyfirst2125]

That's a complete non-answer. When was the last scream prior to the breach heard?

You can’t be fking serious

 

[meh]

I don't know and I don't care.

Do you absolve any of those cops for NOT going in after the shooter? I certainly do not.

F*K you for asking. You said

But the conclusion is inescapable: the "men" in that hallway, from all the LE organizations involved, knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Admitting that is the first step to fixing it.

I'm not claiming that this is factually false. I'm asking a Socratic question that implicates the logic you used to reach the conclusion that everyone in the hallway from all the LE organizations involved knew. There were screams edited out of the video. However, the gunshots were not edited out, and it is reasonable to assume that the screams more or less coincided with gunfire. It is not reasonable, IMHO, to think that the screams persisted continuously for 70 minutes. It is possible that the BORTAC guys didn't hear any screams before the breach. Ergo, we cannot conclude that all the men "from all the LE organizations involved" knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Vis-a-vis the BORTAC guys who did go in eventually, after a difficult-to-accept delay, your conclusion does not follow from the available evidence. If we elide the "from all the LE organizations involved" claim, then I agree. The local cops had all the intel they needed and chose never to go in, may their cowardice haunt them forever. OTOH, it has been claimed that the BORTAC guys did not have all the intel they needed. I'm doubtful of this claim, or at least I suspect there is more scandal to be revealed to better explain the delay between the time they arrived and when they did go in.