21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

Picton said:
"Hey. We're here. What's up?"

"Guy with a gun in a classroom."

There's only one response to that, according to EVERY LE playbook since Columbine. Only one. You go in and get the shooter.
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Screams or no screams anyone worth their salt showing later would come in, get/request a sitrep and the first f***ing question should be are there any children still inside?
 
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vicorjh said:

View: https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/status/1548796652852576256
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When faced with a murderous individual where LE might be harmed, suddenly police want to negotiate, but they see someone not armed going to scratch their balls and they pump 60 rounds into him.

I say next time patrol cars are purchased for PD's the should come without heat or AC if it saves taxpayers a few bucks. Cops can serve the public sweating/freezing their non-existent balls off.
 
meh said:
F*K you for asking. You said



I'm not claiming that this is factually false. I'm asking a Socratic question that implicates the logic you used to reach the conclusion that everyone in the hallway from all the LE organizations involved knew. There were screams edited out of the video. However, the gunshots were not edited out, and it is reasonable to assume that the screams more or less coincided with gunfire. It is not reasonable, IMHO, to think that the screams persisted continuously for 70 minutes. It is possible that the BORTAC guys didn't hear any screams before the breach. Ergo, we cannot conclude that all the men "from all the LE organizations involved" knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Vis-a-vis the BORTAC guys who did go in eventually, after a difficult-to-accept delay, your conclusion does not follow from the available evidence. If we elide the "from all the LE organizations involved" claim, then I agree. The local cops had all the intel they needed and chose never to go in, may their cowardice haunt them forever. OTOH, it has been claimed that the BORTAC guys did not have all the intel they needed. I'm doubtful of this claim, or at least I suspect there is more scandal to be revealed to better explain the delay between the time they arrived and when they did go in.
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The last part. I have been a part of less serious things, but 'serious' and that I didn't get told squat. When it was over, my response was 'that would have been nice to know'.
 
T-Unit said:
When faced with a murderous individual where LE might be harmed, suddenly police want to negotiate, but they see someone not armed going to scratch their balls and they pump 60 rounds into him.

I say next time patrol cars are purchased for PD's the should come without heat or AC if it saves taxpayers a few bucks. Cops can serve the public sweating/freezing their non-existent balls off.
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Sir, please stop, sir.

And this was after BORTAC had arrived and, I think, they were already staged.
 
meh said:
OK, so that's all it takes for you. You toss out an offensive non-sequitur of a question that contradicts everything I've ever written about this, and then can't fathom why I found it offensive?
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Oh, I can fathom it. I just don't want to stir you up more. There's obviously no point.
 
I'm going to be charitable to BORTAC for a second and say they arrived and the sitrep - from the chief who claims he had no idea he was in charge - was "barricaded subject, we think there aren't any more kids in there"

So they let those monkeys f that football for a while until it was clear they had screwed the pooch.

That's the only possible answer I can imagine to explain it without actual malice. Certainly not enough to absolve...I don't know. It's all so disgusting.
 
meh said:
F*K you for asking. You said



I'm not claiming that this is factually false. I'm asking a Socratic question that implicates the logic you used to reach the conclusion that everyone in the hallway from all the LE organizations involved knew. There were screams edited out of the video. However, the gunshots were not edited out, and it is reasonable to assume that the screams more or less coincided with gunfire. It is not reasonable, IMHO, to think that the screams persisted continuously for 70 minutes. It is possible that the BORTAC guys didn't hear any screams before the breach. Ergo, we cannot conclude that all the men "from all the LE organizations involved" knew what was happening and chose not to go into danger for children. Vis-a-vis the BORTAC guys who did go in eventually, after a difficult-to-accept delay, your conclusion does not follow from the available evidence. If we elide the "from all the LE organizations involved" claim, then I agree. The local cops had all the intel they needed and chose never to go in, may their cowardice haunt them forever. OTOH, it has been claimed that the BORTAC guys did not have all the intel they needed. I'm doubtful of this claim, or at least I suspect there is more scandal to be revealed to better explain the delay between the time they arrived and when they did go in.
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Let's consider that in the moment little is known other than shooter in a school. Why should the first assumption by police be the classrooms are empty? That's giving first responders the excuse not to engage when the protocol says to engage. The reality of the situation was children were shot, some weren't, some died, some were dying and could have been saved. The correct action to take is not to hope that everything is hunky dory and assume every gunshot the shooter is firing inside a school is going into children and killing them.

Seeing that video of the Uvalde school chief trying to negotiate after the guy has already shot at cops thru the door shows that there was no urgency by responding officers to risk their lives breaching the door ASAP. That lack of urgency shows lack of courage and cowardice when the duty is to go in and die.

The legal aspect thanks to one of many bad SCOTUS decisions is police are not and apparently cannot be forced to protect others.

We're left with an unfortunate reality that police are not to be trusted, they are not inherently good, brave, or outstanding members of society, they have been given rights to abuse the rights of people by SCOTUS, yet police are also a defense mechanism of a civil society that acts as a deterrence against crime.

We can't expect all police to be Robocop, but we expect when they fail like they did in Uvalde and Parkland to face repercussions and they seldom do as the system is set up to always benefit them. The politicians will never make laws, nor courts uphold said laws, to change this, so these failures by officers must be fixed by ways outside the system.
 
Picton said:
Oh, I can fathom it. I just don't want to stir you up more. There's obviously no point.
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I don't think you took it quite the way I meant it. The concept of absolving the local police, especially those on the scene early, is just disgusting. Everything else in the response is dispassionate, but forget it. The upshot is that I don't think the BORTAC guys who actually went in would have wanted to delay. So why did they? Whether they knew the situation and had to come to terms with the CF that was the local PD or whether they were given a misleading sitrep and believed it because of what the local cops weren't doing, I don't know. I just don't think the guys who actually went in were cowering in fear of going in, listening to the screams of children, until they had finally screwed up enough courage 30+ minutes later.
 
This is turning into “door was locked clusterf***”. It doesn’t take genius and anyone with a GED in any capacity to figure out that there might be a possibility that there are kids there. I mean, no one had accountability of anything in that shitshow. It’s school day, school hours and sure as shit kids in that building in the other classrooms.
 
meh said:
I don't think you took it quite the way I meant it. The concept of absolving the local police, especially those on the scene early, is just disgusting. Everything else in the response is dispassionate, but forget it. The upshot is that I don't think the BORTAC guys who actually went in would have wanted to delay. So why did they? Whether they knew the situation and had to come to terms with the CF that was the local PD or whether they were given a misleading sitrep and believed it because of what the local cops weren't doing, I don't know. I just don't think the guys who actually went in were cowering in fear of going in, listening to the screams of children, until they had finally screwed up enough courage 30+ minutes later.
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I've not read anything that indicates the BORTAC guys came in and immediately went to work. Maybe they did, and if so, that would change how I look at them.

But.

"Immediate neutralization of a school shooter" is dogma. It's something the CoP in the town where I work tells us every year... for twenty years. And they train for it. Now, maybe if the rubber meets the road, they'd fail like the Uvalde people did. But waiting any length of time when an armed man is in a school building is not kosher for any LEO, no matter what the agency.

Every cop there failed in that. So did the BORTAC guys, if they spent more than 2-3 minutes doing their own assessment once they arrived. And I don't buy the "misleading sitrep." It's not hard to do your own hasty recon and figure out what's up.
 
What a phucking clown show. 376 officers - and they're all standing around outside while the kids get shot inside the school?

What exactly IS the point of having "law enforcement" again - can somebody remind me?

Is this another one of those cases I've read about that demonstrate why the Supreme Court has ruled that police have no obligation to protect you?

And people wonder why I have said so so many times that we should reinstitute the militia.

WTF.




damned.jpg




www.dailymail.co.uk

Scathing report finds Uvalde cops had 'egregious poor decision making'

The 149 US Border Patrol agents and 91 state police were among nearly 400 on the day who should have helped with the 'unfolding chaos', the file noted.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
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Picton said:
Every cop there failed in that. So did the BORTAC guys, if they spent more than 2-3 minutes doing their own assessment once they arrived. And I don't buy the "misleading sitrep." It's not hard to do your own hasty recon and figure out what's up.
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I don't buy the misleading sitrep, either, at least not as anything more than a minor factor for a short period of time. I've tried to make that clear. But does the "immediate neutralization of a school shooter" dogma really imply that every LEO agency that might arrive on scene at any point in time is authorized to do anything it wants without first trying to coordinate with local police who are already on the scene and have jurisdiction? If BORTAC had arrived first, I would agree with you, but getting there when they did, I expect they have to attempt to coordinate. My understanding is that they were told by the local PD to wait outside, which they did for 30 minutes until they said "Fk this" and went in anyway.
 
meh said:
I don't buy the misleading sitrep, either, at least not as anything more than a minor factor for a short period of time. I've tried to make that clear. But does the "immediate neutralization of a school shooter" dogma really imply that every LEO agency that might arrive on scene at any point in time is authorized to do anything it wants without first trying to coordinate with local police who are already on the scene and have jurisdiction? If BORTAC had arrived first, I would agree with you, but getting there when they did, I expect they have to attempt to coordinate. My understanding is that they were told by the local PD to wait outside, which they did for 30 minutes until they said "Fk this" and went in anyway.
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The theory is (and this is how it usually goes down; there are a few high-profile shootings where the cops screw the pooch, but most end far sooner) that there's no need to deconflict jurisdictional issues with cops who arrive subsequently because cops who arrive subsequently aren't dealing with an active shooter anymore. Because the first cops on the scene have already dealt with him.

That's literally the way it's supposed to work. First arrival jocks up and goes in, period, no matter what agency they're from. No incident commander is really needed, because the protocol is THAT clear. Shooter is gone within five minutes, usually, because he was too chickenshit to stand up to the first responding cop; cop shoots him, he shoots himself, or he gives up.

That's the way it's gone down much, much more often than not. We've got a sample size of over 200 school shootings over the last 20 years, and only a few of them have gone sideways. When they do, they turn into a YUUUGE deal, which is why we remember Uvalde and that coward deputy at Parkland.
 
meh said:
I don't buy the misleading sitrep, either, at least not as anything more than a minor factor for a short period of time. I've tried to make that clear. But does the "immediate neutralization of a school shooter" dogma really imply that every LEO agency that might arrive on scene at any point in time is authorized to do anything it wants without first trying to coordinate with local police who are already on the scene and have jurisdiction? If BORTAC had arrived first, I would agree with you, but getting there when they did, I expect they have to attempt to coordinate. My understanding is that they were told by the local PD to wait outside, which they did for 30 minutes until they said "Fk this" and went in anyway.
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One of the things I distinctly remember about the Boston Marathon bombing - was a picture of a parking lot - might have been in Watertown - that was literally full of what looked like HUNDREDS of police cruisers, fancy RVs with the names of local police departments on the side - etc. I remember seeing the picture and thinking "WTF - it appears the local police departments have a LOT of money to spend and they also apparently have a LOT of excess personnel who aren't really needed in all of their respective towns - because they're now camped out in a parking lot in Watertown".

And here's the worst thing - and I found this out by talking with a guy who was there that day - was intimately involved because he was employed by the Boston PD - and is a member here: He said a lot of the local police departments that showed up that day - weren't even invited. They just heard about what was happening - and decided to all go running off to Boston and Watertown.

That's some seriously defective shit right there. Sounds like these Uvelde dipshits - were doing something similar. And since they all showed up the sheer weight of all those people just turned the whole situation into chaos.

Another thing that I wondered about was how the whole Watertown thing went down in regards to the police. They were patrolling all over the streets , going up on people's houses with guns drawn - etc. Meanwhile bomber scumbag kid is hiding out in a boat in somebody's backyard. If the homeowner hadn't gone out there - the cops might never had found him.

Seems like they should have literally emptied Watertown of ALL of the po-po and hired one good tracker with his coon-dogs and a few SWAT guys to follow him - and just run that kid to ground.

JUST ONE dedicated guy going in to that Uvelde school - would have been sufficient to stop the shooting:

 
safetyfirst2125 said:
Hand sanitizer.

The screams and crying of a school full of children, terrorized, begging for their little lives and lying in pools of blood, dying.

The police, sworn to protect and serve these children, stop, hang back, and use hand sanitizer.

The soundtrack of the screams and cries of those helpless, dying terrorized children should be played on loud speakers at the execution of those cops. And it should the aired on prime time.

After a proper trial of course.
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That bold part? Yeah, not true. They are not sworn to protect nor serve any children. Why should we expect any other result when officer safety comes first? You are on your own when it counts.

Those involved should do the right thing. The right thing for them to do would bypass the whole trial part and instead just require a cleanup crew to go out to the field and say 'yup, they dead' while salting the ground.

meh said:
When was the last scream heard? If you can't answer that question, explain why your logic still applies to an organization that did not arrive for 30 minutes.
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meh said:
You have no idea why I asked the question.
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I'll bite. Why do you ask?

T-Unit said:
Let's consider that in the moment little is known other than shooter in a school. Why should the first assumption by police be the classrooms are empty? That's giving first responders the excuse not to engage when the protocol says to engage. The reality of the situation was children were shot, some weren't, some died, some were dying and could have been saved. The correct action to take is not to hope that everything is hunky dory and assume every gunshot the shooter is firing inside a school is going into children and killing them.

Seeing that video of the Uvalde school chief trying to negotiate after the guy has already shot at cops thru the door shows that there was no urgency by responding officers to risk their lives breaching the door ASAP. That lack of urgency shows lack of courage and cowardice when the duty is to go in and die.

The legal aspect thanks to one of many bad SCOTUS decisions is police are not and apparently cannot be forced to protect others.

We're left with an unfortunate reality that police are not to be trusted, they are not inherently good, brave, or outstanding members of society, they have been given rights to abuse the rights of people by SCOTUS, yet police are also a defense mechanism of a civil society that acts as a deterrence against crime.

We can't expect all police to be Robocop, but we expect when they fail like they did in Uvalde and Parkland to face repercussions and they seldom do as the system is set up to always benefit them. The politicians will never make laws, nor courts uphold said laws, to change this, so these failures by officers must be fixed by ways outside the system.
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Emphasis mine.

How long after initial shots fired till the last kid called 911? Has the report of officers telling kids to yell out for help and subsequently being shot been debunked yet?

Anyone defending these pukes should be shunned from society.
 
safetyfirst2125 said:
“CODE OF ETHICS

AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, my fundamental duty is to serve the community; to safeguard lives…”

Texas Police Association — Code of Ethics

Texas Police Association, Established 1895

www.texaspoliceassociation.com
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None of this is legally binding tho, it's all window dressing. "To Protect and Serve" is and has always been "To Protect Ourselves."
 
safetyfirst2125 said:
“CODE OF ETHICS

AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, my fundamental duty is to serve the community; to safeguard lives…”

Texas Police Association — Code of Ethics

Texas Police Association, Established 1895

www.texaspoliceassociation.com
Click to expand...

Not law. Not an enforceable requirement. Code of ethics, no better than a pinky swear.

Officers are an agent of the state. Is it your understanding that the state has a duty to protect a citizen?
 
flippinfleck said:
How long after initial shots fired till the last kid called 911?
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Has to be over an hour from first shot in school to last 911 call when the girl was begging for police.

Has the report of officers telling kids to yell out for help and subsequently being shot been debunked yet?
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Not that I'm aware of and I have to assume that would all be audible on bodycam. My suspicion since I heard that has been that police devised that plan, I would assume knowing there were kids still in the class (then again, we have no idea what 911 dispatch said and to whom this was told when those calls were coming in) because their plan was to use a child as a diversion to allow the Bortac team a safer entry.

And I believe that's why the bodycam footage and audio has not been released so far. I mean, if you have police on mic actually discussing using a child as bait (which so far as I know the girl who yelled out was killed after revealing her position) that would cause riots and every Uvalde cop's house would be burned down.
 
T-Unit said:
The law doesn't care about morals.
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They took an oath to save lives yet let children die. I can think of at least 20 charges for each of them.

They should be publicsly executed while the screams of those dying children is played over loud speakers. Fking cowards.
 
flippinfleck said:
I'll bite. Why do you ask?
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It was Socratic question regarding a point of logic. Picton was inferring that

1. Because the screams were edited out of the video, they could be heard in the hallway. (true)
2. Because the screams could be heard in the hallway, every LEO agency involved was aware that there were children in the room. (non-sequitur).

Here he was trying to implicate BORTAC along with the local police for inaction. This may or may not be justified. I'm not arguing that point per se, but as a point of logic, to make the inference he was attempting, we require an additional premise,

* Screams intersected the presence of all LEO agencies in the hallway, regardless of when they arrived.

This is pure conjecture, and it isn't even that likely. Consequently, the answer to this Socratic question is "I don't know", at which point one is supposed to realize that the argument is not valid.
 

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