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.223/ 5.56 VS .223 wylde
- Thread starter Shazam
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- Apr 23, 2011
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The quality of the barrel over the caliber will dictate the cost. The Wylde incorporates the best of both the .223 and 5.56 and is reported to be more accurate than the 5.56.
aeromarine
NES Member
You are looking at three different chamber sizes here: .223 caliber, 5.56 MM and Wylde. .223 cartridges and 5.55 cartridges have the same physical dimensions. However, the 5.56 rounds are loaded to higher pressures. Therefore, it is not safe to shoot a 5.56 MM round in a rifle chambered for .223 caliber. The chambers on 5.56 rifles have a longer lead in angle than .223 rifles (the distance between the tip of the bullet and the point it becomes fully engaged with the rifled bore) to compensate for the higher pressures. Wylde chambers are a compromise between the two that make it safe to shoot both rounds in the same rifle.
Now here is a twist that makes it a little more confusing. Note that older Ruger Mini 14s are stamped as .223 caliber. However, they are really 5.56. Rock River rifles say 5.56 MM on their receivers but they are actually Wylde. Often the rifle manuals are not clear on the type of chamber a gun has so you may have to call the manufacturer to find out.
I have 3 different rifles with Wylde chambers and 2 are set up for precision shooting. They are tack drivers. Based on my experience I would say they are the way to go. I have never had a problem and the accuracy is great.
However, if you ever come across a bolt action rifle such as a Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70 that is stamped as .223 caliber DO NOT use it to fire 5.56 ammo. It would not be safe.
Now here is a twist that makes it a little more confusing. Note that older Ruger Mini 14s are stamped as .223 caliber. However, they are really 5.56. Rock River rifles say 5.56 MM on their receivers but they are actually Wylde. Often the rifle manuals are not clear on the type of chamber a gun has so you may have to call the manufacturer to find out.
I have 3 different rifles with Wylde chambers and 2 are set up for precision shooting. They are tack drivers. Based on my experience I would say they are the way to go. I have never had a problem and the accuracy is great.
However, if you ever come across a bolt action rifle such as a Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70 that is stamped as .223 caliber DO NOT use it to fire 5.56 ammo. It would not be safe.
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Soooo...what exactly do you shoot out of your .223 Wilde barrels...exact ammo would be helpful, even if it's just run of the mill 5.56. Brand/grain/charge?
The difference in the chamber and how they are cut dictates what you can shoot safely.
Back in the early days of 223 remington the commercial market was shooting bolt actions in 223 remington used on varmint with light bullets. Less than 50 grains and a faster twist in the barrel 1-12 to 1-14. Even the first generation of ARs had 1-12 twist. Now move on to the cartridge.
5.56 NATO with 62grain bullet was later adopted
The military standards do load their ammo to a higher pressure to assure function in all platforms.
Military also needed a chamber that would fit tracers and any other projectile they wanted to cram in there.
Now what happens is if you try and load a 5.56 military standard round into a 223 remington SAAMI spec chamber generally the bullet would cram into the lands which is not good. Having a 5.56 NATO round that is,loaded to a higher spec than your average 223 rem crammed into the lands will increase the pressure.
Now there are other 223 rem chamber variants out there. Although not very common and things like 223match are generally on custom guns.
That said if you want to know more about the actual chamber differences.
There is enough info here to get you going or drive you nuts. http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
Chamber choice my thoughts
5.56 NATO if the rifle is going to be a SHTF rifle. The NATO chamber is cut on the loose side to aid in reliable cycling with dirt getting where it is supposed to be. Like dropping your mag in the dirt.
Wylde chamber will allow you to shoot a larger variety of bullet weights and profiles.
In the end don't let chamber selection dictate your choice. Quality barrel will weigh in more than chamber.
My friend bought a discount 1/8 stainless 20" barrel with Wylde chamber the crown is miss poor machined and if you look really good you can see that the bore is not centered in the barrel.
The rifle works and has not had any issues other than it shoots to the right and accuracy is not good. His brother bought a 16" NATO chamber "target or Varmint" barrel for the same money and it shoots black hills match 69grain ammo to 1moa with ease.
In the end think about what you going to be doing. Ammo selection
Will you be shooting steel cased and or the cheapest ammo you can find most of the time.
Well if so there is no need for a high end match barrel regardless of the chamber.
Do you want to shoot match grade ammo or bullet weights above 62 grains? Barrel choice will become more critical.
The Wylde chamber was designed by Mr. Wylde very experienced shooter of the 223 most likely long before most of us even considered buying one.
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Mac, I would agree with most of what you said except your description of barrel twist. a 1-12 twist is one twist in twelve inches. That barrel spins the bullet less than a 1-7 twist, which would twist the bullet once every SEVEN inches.
The lighter bullets need less twist per barrel length than modern heavier bullets, which is why you see modern barrels with the 1-7 twist.
The lighter bullets need less twist per barrel length than modern heavier bullets, which is why you see modern barrels with the 1-7 twist.
Shazam
Banned
Probably function and accuracy. I mean I'm looking for cheap ammo as well, this wouldn't be a match rifle at all. I have no plans for a rifle yet just would like to understand the .223 wyldes place among its brothers.
Continue to read up on the .223 Wylde, but I don't think you're going to see a real difference in an AR shooting off hand with cheap ammo.
EDIT: I meant to say no noticeable difference between a 5.56 barrel (off-hand, cheap ammo)
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Yes correct. I was only referencing early 223 design with the 1/12 twist.
I think we can agree if the OP is looking to shoot the least expensive ammo any 5.56 NATO chambered barrel in the middle of the road quality will do....
1/9 1/8 1/7 ? If you plan on shooting inexpensive ammo it's generally 62 grains or less. So a 1/9 to 1/8 would do just fine.
OP I have a thread in the reloading section showing how poorly wolf ammo shoots through my stainless 20" heavy match barrel with Wylde chamber 1/8 twist. My standard A2 with 1/9 twist shoots wolf better than my match rifle.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-A-quick-comparison-of-different-bullets-ammo
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Something like that.
There's no reason to pay more for a Wylde chamber for X manufacture just to shoot steel cased or m193 m855 ammo. The "chamber" imho will not increase accuracy with any of the inexpensive ammo vs just a good quality barrel. If the barrel is cheap/poorly manufactures the chamber cut into it is of little importance.
A few thoughts.
My range beater that I built I knew from the beginning I was going to shoot almost all steel cased ammo i was looking for hits on target accuracy not small groups. Heavy abuse rapid fire ,mag dumps etc etc So,basically I bought the least expensive barrel I could find at the time. Which ended up,being a Shaw barrel I bought on sale. I don't think any other barrel would do any better for my intended use. I put 7000 rounds through that gun 99% cheap ammo 3000 rounds was some old norinco stuff.
With the money I saved shooting steel vs brass i bought a complete upper and re barreled the beater!
If you know your just going to shoot inexpensive ammo 55 and 62 grain stuff 5.56 is,just fine.
Although if you find a barrel you like and there's no cost difference on the Wylde chamber then that's fine also.
I feel any chambering other than NATO or Wylde is a purpose built rifle which you will be,loading custom ammo for anyway.
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More like:
.223 for a match rifle, especially bolt action. Not for military ammo.
5.56 for dependability, but hard on the brass and not as accurate.
Wylde is in between: not as accurate as a good .223 chamber, bit harder on the brass, but more reliable in an autoloader than a .223 chamber. Also safe with military ammo while being more accurate and reloading-friendly than a military chamber.
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Beretta92FS
NES Member
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I shoot "match" grade ammo. Although I reload my own.
My 2 Wilson Arms heavy match barrels are Wylde chamber and have target crowns. Believe mine are recesses and tapered to 11' degrees.
I shoot from 52grain flat base bullet to 77grain nosler match. I do not shoot run of the mill 223 or 5.56 of any type through these other than a brief test I did.
My basics load is 75 grain hornady match or 77 grain nosler custom comp bullets.
Shooting from the rifle rest either bullet will shoot 1moa or less. More than good for my needs as once I sling up and go prone I'm a 4 MOA shooter less on good days slightly more on bad days.
I,have a plain,old steel 1/9 NATO chamber AR for all the steel cased and M193/855 I would ever shoot.
With out looking at the diagrams for each chamber it's really hard to explain the differences. I don't think I have the smarts to do it.
The important part is knowing 5.56 NATO is loaded to a higher pressure by either powder type or quantity. The next part is bullet profile and where the ogive of the bullet is in relation to the lead/throat/rifling.
The NATO throat/lead is a different shape/length and size as to be able to shoot the many different types of military ammo there are more than just 5.56 NATO. Basically long enough to not worry about bullets hitting the lands.
Bullet profile and seating depth into the case can be a big issue also. If you load some bullets to the max overall length to still fit the magazine it will be crammed into the lands. Not good for any rifle really.
In the end the quality of the barrel manufacture the accuracy of the chamber reamer and your choice of ammo might be more of a factor than Wylde vs NATO. Wylde with 1/8 twist covers a lot of territory. If your getting into single loaded rounds with 80 grain or heavier bullets that's another level all together.
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What a well timed thread!
I was just reading about this, and came across this article:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223
It seems pretty sane, worth a read.
What got me there was headspace gauges: I have a ".223 Wylde no-go gauge" that I bought for re-barreling a rifle with a .223 Wylde chambered barrel. A couple weeks ago I was shooting with a friend and his brand-new AR shoots really poorly, literally can't keep them all on a 50' pistol target at 50Y. I thought it might be a headspace issue, so I suggested using my gauge.
But then I got to wondering: What's the difference between a .223 Rem., 5.56 NATO, and .223 Wylde headspace gauge?
I was just reading about this, and came across this article:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223
It seems pretty sane, worth a read.
What got me there was headspace gauges: I have a ".223 Wylde no-go gauge" that I bought for re-barreling a rifle with a .223 Wylde chambered barrel. A couple weeks ago I was shooting with a friend and his brand-new AR shoots really poorly, literally can't keep them all on a 50' pistol target at 50Y. I thought it might be a headspace issue, so I suggested using my gauge.
But then I got to wondering: What's the difference between a .223 Rem., 5.56 NATO, and .223 Wylde headspace gauge?
Not much really, go and no go are very close but a 5.56 field gauge is about as "loose" as it gets before it's unsafe.
Can your friend keep groups of less than 3" @ 50 yards with your rifle?
Can you friend shoot a group at all.
What rifle does your friend shoot. Headspace is seldom a problem for accuracy usually the throat will be wasted before headspace fails.
I can't copy and paste pdf from my kindle? Google randells notes 223 headspace gauges.
I can't shoot his gun for shit either, and we both can easily shoot 3" groups with his other rifles using the same ammo, so I'm totally sure it's not operator error.
Damn, so much for the easy stuff.
- homebuilt rifle (bought the upper as a unit)
- can't remember the ammo, but it was Federal or similar, name brand
- BUIS sights, they don't wiggle, twist, or move; and we didn't muck with them. They feel solid. I can't remember which ones, but they were a name brand like MagPul or something.
- barrel crown hidden under a compensator, so I don't know.
- nothing feels loose, barrel feels solid on the upper.
- crappy barrel? Sure,
Not sure how to tell that other than eliminate everything else.More testing is in order, clearly.
- homebuilt rifle (bought the upper as a unit)
- can't remember the ammo, but it was Federal or similar, name brand
- BUIS sights, they don't wiggle, twist, or move; and we didn't muck with them. They feel solid. I can't remember which ones, but they were a name brand like MagPul or something.
- barrel crown hidden under a compensator, so I don't know.
- nothing feels loose, barrel feels solid on the upper.
- crappy barrel? Sure,
More testing is in order, clearly.
You see any copper or green build up heavier anywhere on the comp than other spots.
Comps are a great way to hide a shiity crown.
Any idea who the upper was made by. My range friend bought one of PSA "machine gun steel" barrels. So called double chromed or some shit. I'm thinking it belongs on a,machine gun. Tried many factory match grade samples it will not shoot better than 5MOA.
