7 Dead in Santa Barbara Shooting

[Quiet]

I know your trying to drive your point home but your not paying much attention to some very telling facts. Sample these tidbits again:

He harbored jealous rage and hate toward someone who had a few play dates at his house. Enough to obsess about it for the rest of his thankfully short life. But the important part of this is the person in question was surprised to hear these feelings had existed at all and mentioned the killer said maybe 3 words during these playdates. Sounds like he might just be shy?

And much later when his concerned mother calls the cops to check on his well being and all they can come back with is he seems a little shy? Yet because of his documentation of this event we now know he was actually shitting his pants and thinking his years of planning and entire life was about to end. Yet he was able remain a cool enough customer to fool everyone yet again that he was not a threat to himself or others.

So how is your psycho section net going to catch slippery nuts like him without hauling the rest of the mental health population in along with him? Your not and you know it. But you seem ok with that...

What you are saying is true. What you are missing is his parents knew he was in crisis, even though the cops didn't. A consult with the new known issues with his regular psychiatrist might have ended things differently. We'll never know of course. His parents knew him better than anyone and they sent the cops who saw nothing and could do nothing. THAT is the problem.

 

[rkwjunior]

I know your trying to drive your point home but your not paying much attention to some very telling facts. Sample these tidbits again:

He harbored jealous rage and hate toward someone who had a few play dates at his house. Enough to obsess about it for the rest of his thankfully short life. But the important part of this is the person in question was surprised to hear these feelings had existed at all and mentioned the killer said maybe 3 words during these playdates. Sounds like he might just be shy?

And much later when his concerned mother calls the cops to check on his well being and all they can come back with is he seems a little shy? Yet because of his documentation of this event we now know he was actually shitting his pants and thinking his years of planning and entire life was about to end. Yet he was able remain a cool enough customer to fool everyone yet again that he was not a threat to himself or others.

So how is your psycho section net going to catch slippery nuts like him without hauling the rest of the mental health population in along with him? Your not and you know it. But you seem ok with that...

It doesnt matter what the police thought of him, or what some other individual thought, those are the people he knows he can out smart. Again, it goes back to the people who knew him the best and those who knew the situation. It's like asking a complete stranger what my favorite food is, but if u ask someone who knows me, chances are they'll get it right. IMHO the police dropped the ball and should have just listen to the mother and not take it upon themselves to psychologically analyze someone that's smarter than them and has a plan already drawn out. Of course he's gonna act innocent. The parents and Dr are at fault here, and they should be ashamed of themselves for letting it happen, they deserve every ounce of guilt I'm sure they feel.

 

[GPP]

It doesnt matter what the police thought of him, or what some other individual thought, those are the people he knows he can out smart. Again, it goes back to the people who knew him the best and those who knew the situation. It's like asking a complete stranger what my favorite food is, but if u ask someone who knows me, chances are they'll get it right. IMHO the police dropped the ball and should have just listen to the mother and not take it upon themselves to psychologically analyze someone that's smarter than them and has a plan already drawn out. Of course he's gonna act innocent. The parents and Dr are at fault here, and they should be ashamed of themselves for letting it happen, they deserve every ounce of guilt I'm sure they feel.

So ultimately, and I may be wrong here, you would support the police putting people in custody because of a therapist or a parents/ family members opinions? The police would have no say, just go and retrieve the guy?

 

[Warrior1A]

It doesnt matter what the police thought of him, or what some other individual thought, those are the people he knows he can out smart. Again, it goes back to the people who knew him the best and those who knew the situation. It's like asking a complete stranger what my favorite food is, but if u ask someone who knows me, chances are they'll get it right. IMHO the police dropped the ball and should have just listen to the mother and not take it upon themselves to psychologically analyze someone that's smarter than them and has a plan already drawn out. Of course he's gonna act innocent. The parents and Dr are at fault here, and they should be ashamed of themselves for letting it happen, they deserve every ounce of guilt I'm sure they feel.

You're saying this with hindsight. No one could have predicted that this would have been the end result, the person at fault is the one who committed the atrocities. The ADULT. This is what is wrong with society- blaming everyone else for the actions of an individual. Sometimes, tragedies like these cannot be stopped or avoided.

 

[dogdoctor]

His parents decided somehow that he was fine. His therapist and docs decided the same thing. If they knew he wasn't fine, then they dropped the ball.

No, have him committed because he is a danger to society as diagnosed by a Dr. I honestly think people under estimate how dangerous these upper level crazies are, behind an innocent face and smile a killer exists, and it's obvious Elliots Dr and family knew it.

What did he do prior to last week that made him a danger to society? He just graduated college and nobody at school was worried about him.

We don't know what he was doing that tipped his hand to his parents. But there was something that invoked a safety check is needed response. And honestly an invested parent in their kids can and should spot the subtle changes that should make you question if there are problems present.

See I feel that too often it's a direct result of parents incapable of spotting the changes or rather spotting them and then incapable of asking the hard questions of themselves and their kids. They don't want to be seen as failures as a parent. Or even worse is the fear that asking questions might drive the disturbed to be more disturbed. One of the hardest things in life is recognizing (not being blinded by love) that your child is not mentally sound, and then taking necessary drastic actions to prevent them from harming themselves or others. It's human nature to want to protect your child. But sometimes the safety of others must come first.

I think what it really boils down to is that only way to prevent or reduce the number of people slaughtered by these psychos, is through increased personal responsibility by individuals for their personal safety.

Whether it was this whacko, or the Newtown nut job, or the Colorado freak show, all of these incidents could have been avoided if an armed citizen had the means and courage to intervene.

I respectfully agree with your right to protect yourself, but it shouldn't come to this "we all must be armed" statement. Some people are just not fit for society and like it or not families need to accept that and make stronger moves toward getting the needed medical help or even admission to psychiatric care if need be.

 

[Admin]

It's human nature to want to protect your child. But sometimes the safety of others must come first.

The government can't run the post office let alone decide who should be committed. I'm not fine with the .gov deciding who is fit and who isn't. Not the society I want to live in. There are crazy people, they sometimes kill people, it's the cost of freedom.

 

[Lcstyle]

Going around knocking on people doors is far fetched, and i don't know why this is being exaggerated. Nothing was said about gathering up any crazy off the street, why is that statement being twisted?? The 2 particular crazies we know about had issues that couldn't be more obvious. Just because they are high functioning doesn't make them any less dangerous, that makes them more dangerous, living amongst the general public undetected by everyday people but known by Dr's and family members to dangerous. I honestly don't think an individual has to first commit an act of violence to be labeled dangerous if a Dr is telling the family, "Hey, your son is without a doubt a ticking time bomb and this is what I suggest, and if u don't, lives are at stake, possibly yours. His parent are also lucky to be alive.

You among many others posting in this thread, calling for government to "clean up the crazies" are living breathing proof that the following dictum still rings true today:

I guess there'll be no more large sodas for you! Das ist Deine Führer Bloomturd!!!!

 

[Quiet]

So ultimately, and I may be wrong here, you would support the police putting people in custody because of a therapist or a parents/ family members opinions? The police would have no say, just go and retrieve the guy?

Since we (as a society) have shifted the burden of caring for mentally ill from family to .gov, then yes. If a parent backed by mental health pro swears out some sort of mental health warrant then I am thinking that the cops should treat it like any warrant and take the person for the mental evaluation. This burden is higher than what is currently in place. It allows for the people and their doctors to make a preliminary decision that someone they know and love and have cared for is in need of immediate evaluation.

If .gov wasn't there (and assuming the supposedly ill person is local) you'd gather your friends and bring your adult child in for treatment yourself. The .gov prevents you from doing this!!! If you want to take .gov out of the equation completely, I would support that. But right now .gov is in the way of dealing with the problem.

 

[Quiet]

We don't know what he was doing that tipped his hand to his parents. But there was something that invoked a safety check is needed response. And honestly an invested parent in their kids can and should spot the subtle changes that should make you question if there are problems present.

See I feel that too often it's a direct result of parents incapable of spotting the changes or rather spotting them and then incapable of asking the hard questions of themselves and their kids. They don't want to be seen as failures as a parent. Or even worse is the fear that asking questions might drive the disturbed to be more disturbed. One of the hardest things in life is recognizing (not being blinded by love) that your child is not mentally sound, and then taking necessary drastic actions to prevent them from harming themselves or others. It's human nature to want to protect your child. But sometimes the safety of others must come first.

I respectfully agree with your right to protect yourself, but it shouldn't come to this "we all must be armed" statement. Some people are just not fit for society and like it or not families need to accept that and make stronger moves toward getting the needed medical help or even admission to psychiatric care if need be.

We know what he did. He posted his YouTube videos saying goodbye to the world and saying he was going to punish women on 4/24 IIRC, because he was going to do all of this on 4/26. He got sick or cold feet or whatever and he left the videos in place. His parents saw them and saw he was in trouble and called the cops. He took the vids down, putting them back up before he carried out his plan last week.

Search this thread for the word "sum mary" (no space) and read the post I wrote about it. Can't cut and paste a link from my phone.

We don't know what the result of a full psych eval would have led to. Well never know.

 

[cekim]

But right now .gov is in the way of dealing with the problem.

Both literally and via moral hazard.

At the end of the day, no law or policy defines or divides the relationship of a parent to a child and the obligations of parenthood. The law is an abstraction imposed on this relationship.

However, the "moral hazard" that the state has created by pretending that they exist between children and their parents is likely a significant factor in their failure.

Of course, they likely voted to create, continue and expand that hazard, so the blame circles back to where it always was - with the parents.

There are no happy answers here, but personal responsibility and due process...

 

[dogdoctor]

The government can't run the post office let alone decide who should be committed. I'm not fine with the .gov deciding who is fit and who isn't. Not the society I want to live in. There are crazy people, they sometimes kill people, it's the cost of freedom.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think the .gov should be deciding who is committed. I don't think the .gov should be involved in that at all. That is between the parents, doctors, and the patient. What I am saying however, is to all the parents out there calling for more gun legislation, more mental health care reform, etc., etc.. that the best defense is a good offense. This has to all start by having a grounded set of parents that are willing to long and hard at their kid's behavior and really question it when needed. If you don't think you can admit to yourself that your kid has a psychological issue that needs attention or even go as far as have your kid committed if the need arose, then what the F are you doing breeding. My statement was that it is human nature to want to protect your child. True. And for some they see commitment as failing or letting down their child. I'm sorry, but sometimes to protect themselves or in some cases other, you have to do things that might feel wrong as a parent. Being a parent isn't something to take lightly. And to me, I feel the vast majority of this country does just that. Having the title of Mom/Dad just because you have kid doesn't mean you actually earned that title.

Then of course you have to have the faith in the medical community that it will support those parents when need be.

 

[Quiet]

Both literally and via moral hazard.

At the end of the day, no law or policy defines or divides the relationship of a parent to a child and the obligations of parenthood. The law is an abstraction imposed on this relationship.

However, the "moral hazard" that the state has created by pretending that they exist between children and their parents is likely a significant factor in their failure.

Of course, they likely voted to create, continue and expand that hazard, so the blame circles back to where it always was - with the parents.

There are no happy answers here, but personal responsibility and due process...

I understand that at first glance my posts on this appear to support .gov intrusion into our lives. That is not my position. What I'm talking about is working within the godforsaken system that we are forced to live with to accomplish what we as free humans would be doing. I've tried to conjure up a way that simultaneously protects the sane from abuse.

 

[cekim]

I understand that at first glance my posts on this appearto support .gov intrusion into our lives. THat is not my position. What I'm talking about is working within the godforsaken system that we are forced to live with to accomplish what we as free humans would be doing. I've tried to conjure up a way that simultaneously protects the sane from abuse.

I did not intend to critique your position, but rather society's as a whole.

I am not in favor of band-aids of accepting what we have because it seems to hard to change it. It is broken. It is killing people and destroying lives that need not be destroyed. We should understand why... understand that it is not a simple problem... understand that many/all of us share some blame for how it got here.

At the end of the day though - while someone experiencing has to face the current reality of the system, the rest of us have to face the need to change that reality or expect more parenting failures cum mass murders...

 

[StevieP]

The Demanding Moms are at it again.

How the Hell does the NRA and pro-civil libertarians counter this nonsense?

http://act.everytown.org/sign/NotOn...e=fb_n_&utm_medium=_o&utm_campaign=notonemore

Postcard activism and hashtag politics are rampant.

 

[Quiet]

I did not intend to critique your position, but rather society's as a whole.

I am not in favor of band-aids of accepting what we have because it seems to hard to change it. It is broken. It is killing people and destroying lives that need not be destroyed. We should understand why... understand that it is not a simple problem... understand that many/all of us share some blame for how it got here.

At the end of the day though - while someone experiencing has to face the current reality of the system, the rest of us have to face the need to change that reality or expect more parenting failures cum mass murders...

I don't think there's a law saying the problem can't be addressed at both ends. Dismantling the entire system might take longer tho. Or maybe not. Where are those III%ers when ya need'em? LOL

BTW, I'm not saying this shooter's parents were good (or bad). I have absolutely no clue. I don't know what if anything they tried over the last month, or over his whole life. The kid was in therapy according to his writings at least since 13; I have read elsewhere it started at age 8.

 

[dogdoctor]

We know what he did. We don't know what the result of a full psych eval would have led to. Well never know.

I did the search and I was unaware of the manifesto. Did his parents know it existed (until after the fact)? Regardless, this kid was very disturbed and I find it very hard to believe that there were no visible or behavioral warning signs to be had. Who knows what a psych eval would have ultimately revealed.

At the end of the day, no law or policy defines or divides the relationship of a parent to a child and the obligations of parenthood. The law is an abstraction imposed on this relationship.

Of course, they likely voted to create, continue and expand that hazard, so the blame circles back to where it always was - with the parents.

There are no happy answers here, but personal responsibility and due process...

An excellent post!

 

[cekim]

BTW, I'm not saying this shooter's parents were good (or bad). I have absolutely no clue. I don't know what if anything they tried over the last month, or over his whole life. The kid was in therapy according to his writings at least since 13; I have read elsewhere it started at age 8.

Res ipsa loquitur...

Any parent not ready for that isn't ready to be a parent and their parents failed too. That's the job.

As for babies and bathwater - I understand completely how daunting this is and appears, but step one is to shame those calling for gun-control for wasting our time, disarming people from future aggressors and getting people killed instead of helping us address the real issue...

 

[Palladin]

Then there's this guy!! He didn't need a gun, he used common household items

http://wtkr.com/2014/05/27/norview-...uilty-to-brutal-murder-of-parents/?hpt=ju_bn1

 

[Palladin]

The Demanding Moms are at it again.

How the Hell does the NRA and pro-civil libertarians counter this nonsense?

http://act.everytown.org/sign/NotOn...e=fb_n_&utm_medium=_o&utm_campaign=notonemore

Postcard activism and hashtag politics are rampant.

save the time, don't click on this and give them credibility

 

[Quiet]

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...oting?p=3943544&highlight=summary#post3943544

Link to my post
I thought Iincluded why he ddidn't do it the first time, but I guess I didn't. It describes the most interesting parts of the 140 page hate filled opus. If you want a glimpse into the mind of a twisted, probably autistic, deluded, egocentric, empathy-free, persecution complex suffering, mass murdering tool, this one is written in a manner that is cogent.

(LOL ETA: I'm talking about the shooter and his manifesto, not me and my summary of it. Hahah whoops)

Don't confuse his writings about how others treated him for reality... I believe he projected his own illness into his perception of other's thoughts and intentions.

 

[Quiet]

Res ipsa loquitur...

Any parent not ready for that isn't ready to be a parent and their parents failed too. That's the job.

As for babies and bathwater - I understand completely how daunting this is and appears, but step one is to shame those calling for gun-control for wasting our time, disarming people from future aggressors and getting people killed instead of helping us address the real issue...

Now that's something we could hoist a beer to.

 

[rkwjunior]

You among many others posting in this thread, calling for government to "clean up the crazies" are living breathing proof that the following dictum still rings true today:

I guess there'll be no more large sodas for you! Das ist Deine Führer Bloomturd!!!!

Again people always jump to conclusions about someone else's opinion, everyone here is always quick to label and judge, that doesnt seem very conservative of u.
I never said anything about the government getting involved, if it's made possible for the parents/family and Dr to make the final decisions on what happens to specific individuals such as people like Elliot and Adam, than I'm all for it.

 

[dogdoctor]

Res ipsa loquitur...

Any parent not ready for that isn't ready to be a parent and their parents failed too. That's the job.

As for babies and bathwater - I understand completely how daunting this is and appears, but step one is to shame those calling for gun-control for wasting our time, disarming people from future aggressors and getting people killed instead of helping us address the real issue...

+1
/thread

 

[mikem317]

So when do we demand action from AAA and the NKCA?

Highly disturbed individuals will use whatever tools they can muster to carry out their murderous plans. Doesn't matter if its a BMW 335I, an OXO steak knife or a Sig Sauer P226.

 

[Lcstyle]

Again people always jump to conclusions about someone else's opinion, everyone here is always quick to label and judge, that doesnt seem very conservative of u.
I never said anything about the government getting involved, if it's made possible for the parents/family and Dr to make the final decisions on what happens to specific individuals such as people like Elliot and Adam, than I'm all for it.

You can't use this on me because it was not too long ago where I myself was getting beat up on here when I would post statist non-sense. Look the truth is if you don't get it you don't get it. But if you really think about these issues you'll realize that you are trying to hang on to statist or socialist ideals and ways of thinking. Therefore the dictum STATISTS GONNA STATE rings true time and time again.

It wasn't until I examined myself closely and shed my communist / socialist indoctrination and views that I realized I was wrong and people on here calling me a statist were right. There's no need to take it personally, it's not about feelings, but rather more about logic.

Plainly stated:

 

[rkwjunior]

So ultimately, and I may be wrong here, you would support the police putting people in custody because of a therapist or a parents/ family members opinions? The police would have no say, just go and retrieve the guy?

The police need not get involved unless the Dr and family tell the police that people are in danger. The mother admirably did recognize this and made the call, but the dumb ass police Decided to make their own decisions and they were wrong, THAT is the problem, if the police are told by the Dr and family that picking him up and bringing him to a mental facility for further evaluation is best, then do it, no questions.

 

[rkwjunior]

You can't use this on me because it was not too long ago where I myself was getting beat up on here when I would post statist non-sense. Look the truth is if you don't get it you don't get it. But if you really think about these issues you'll realize that you are trying to hang on to statist or socialist ideals and ways of thinking. Therefore the dictum STATISTS GONNA STATE rings true time and time again.

It wasn't until I examined myself closely and shed my communist / socialist indoctrination and views that I realized I was wrong and people on here calling me a statist were right. There's no need to take it personally, it's not about feelings, but rather more about logic.

Plainly stated:

That's ur opinion and i don't care what u think, your jumping to conclusions about me. So far you've had nothing to add but finger pointing. I try too look at things from all angles, if i find one angle may not be the right angle then I'll make a change accordingly. But I'm certainly not letting any individual on here including you sway my decision one way or another because of what someone else believes, i will listen to their opinion and then decide.

Its painfully obvious from your first paragraph your agreeing with everyone on here to fit in, which I find is common here. Sorry, but I say what I feel, if u don't like that's fine, you dont have to, thats the beauty of the 1st ammendment.

 

[Palladin]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/27/tech/web/rap-genius-fired-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

 

[wahsben]

Yes, and this is why personal responsibility is paramount. Governments have failed to protect others throughout history and in reality they have endangered many and have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions.

The government can't run the post office let alone decide who should be committed. I'm not fine with the .gov deciding who is fit and who isn't. Not the society I want to live in. There are crazy people, they sometimes kill people, it's the cost of freedom.

 

[cekim]

Yes, and this is why personal responsibility is paramount. Governments have failed to protect others throughout history and in reality they have endangered many and have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions.

I ran the numbers once, lost the spreadsheet, but the short version was:
1. Add up all the murders in the past 100 years
2. Add up all the genocide attributed to government policy
3. Divide #1 by the sum of human population
4. Divide #2 by the sum of politicians

It came out to politicians being ~6,000 more likely to kill with policy than any citizen to murder with a firearm.

Clearly we need Politician-Control (though we already have it on the books, it is the Bill of Rights, it just needs enforcement).