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9 mm effectiveness ?

I prefer the guns I can hit what I'm aiming at, regardless of caliber. 1911 in 45 or 9 and revolvers in 357, just depends on where I'm going.
 
The murderer in VA Beach (may he burn in hell) unfortunately killed 12 out of the 16 people that he shot with his .45 ACP, which is an unfortunate real world demonstration of the effectiveness of that round.
 
180 GRAIN FMJ said:
So, the same engineering has not not been applied to advance the performance of the .40 and .45?

This argument is all over the internet and makes zero sense. It's like saying there is no need for 6 or 8 cylinder engines due to improvements of the 4 cylinder.

That said, I love the 9mm and own/carry one on a daily basis but I can see why some still like the 40/45, esp. in mag restricted states.
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They have but it’s beside the point. The argument against 9mm was insufficient stopping power/small wound channel. That wasn’t an issue with .40 and .45 supposedly. The advantages of the 9 over the other 2 were in size (mag capacity) weight, low perceived recoil and cost. The point of the article is with the only disadvantage removed by technology there is no reason to avoid 9mm
 
cjmass said:
The murderer in VA Beach (may he burn in hell) unfortunately killed 12 out of the 16 people that he shot with his .45 ACP, which is an unfortunate real world demonstration of the effectiveness of that round.
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Or the fact he used a suppressor and was able to get close and precise shot placement on the victims. all handgun rounds are rather ineffective as a whole. Many people survive getting shot, all comes down to what gets hit
 
I've seen several tests by Paul Harrell of all three rounds on his "meat target". A bit pedantic in style, but his tests are quite realistic and have interesting results. The .40 and .45 seem to be better at damaging hard tissue such as bones, but all three have similar overall performance.

What "stops" a target? Destroying the CNS or breaking a major bone needed for mobility will disable a threat immediately. Nothing else. Any other placement will make holes that leak, causing eventual asphyxiation due to blood loss. But leaking takes time, and like a deer running after a clean heart shot, a threat can continue to damage you for too long.

So my calculus is that given the low probability of making an immediately disabling shot on the first try, I'd like to have more tries in the magazine. Hence, 9mm for me.

I love these topics. They give so many people the pleasure of being the smartest guy on the intertubes.
 
cjmass said:
The murderer in VA Beach (may he burn in hell) unfortunately killed 12 out of the 16 people that he shot with his .45 ACP, which is an unfortunate real world demonstration of the effectiveness of that round.
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Or that his shot placement was deadly on 12 out of 16.
 
jron said:
Or the fact he used a suppressor and was able to get close and precise shot placement on the victims. all handgun rounds are rather ineffective as a whole. Many people survive getting shot, all comes down to what gets hit
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There are videos on youtube that people said they heard gunfire. I don't know how much a suppressor reduces the report of a 45 but I don't think it would be enough to have an effect on how close he could get although it might have.
 
FiremanBob said:
I've seen several tests by Paul Harrell of all three rounds on his "meat target". A bit pedantic in style, but his tests are quite realistic and have interesting results. The .40 and .45 seem to be better at damaging hard tissue such as bones, but all three have similar overall performance.

What "stops" a target? Destroying the CNS or breaking a major bone needed for mobility will disable a threat immediately. Nothing else. Any other placement will make holes that leak, causing eventual asphyxiation due to blood loss. But leaking takes time, and like a deer running after a clean heart shot, a threat can continue to damage you for too long.

So my calculus is that given the low probability of making an immediately disabling shot on the first try, I'd like to have more tries in the magazine. Hence, 9mm for me.

I love these topics. They give so many people the pleasure of being the smartest guy on the intertubes.
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I think that I watched the video that you are referring to. Out of 3 shots, 2 of the Hornady 9mm 135gr HP did not expand at all. With the .40, he could only find 2 of the Hornady 175gr HP, but both expanded very well. The point that I got out of his video(s) is that no one can predict what damage a given caliber is going to do, so go with what you train with and are competent with and just ignore all the other noise.
 
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jron said:
Or the fact he used a suppressor and was able to get close and precise shot placement on the victims. all handgun rounds are rather ineffective as a whole. Many people survive getting shot, all comes down to what gets hit
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I don't think that Dick Casull got the memo that all handgun rounds are rather ineffective as a whole.
 
DPR said:
No need to. Nobody can stand up to the 10mm
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LOL, nobody as in the girls and girly-men in the FBI.

*** ***

.40 is a little snappier than 9mm, and 10mm a little snappier than 40. The 9mm argument of the week is always amusing. Ask my wife what is her favorite handgun round and you will get a quick answer- "That big one I shot with a revolver at Women On Target a few years ago!". It was a a 460 S&W Magnum & her shots were well placed. I think of this every time someone gets critical about .40 cal for being a bad choice because of shot placement blah blah blah.

The other comical argument is mag capacity when people start to say "OMG you gonna die with less than X rounds." This is the most common argument for 9mm apologists. So who was the last person on NES who ran out of rounds in a SD situation? For that matter, who was the last (non mil, non LEO) person on NES who fired a shot in self defense? Who was the last person who even had to draw in self defense?

If you play steel targets games or fantasize about being the reincarnation of John Wick, sure- use the least recoiling caliber allowed by the rules. For self defense, what's wrong with using the hardest hitting caliber you are fully proficient to shoot and that fits in a platform you like for a given purpose?

FWIW I have recommended the G19 and 9mm M&P for folks with a new LTC and when I pocket carry it's a G43. I'm not a 9mm hater, just amused by all the bullsh!t arguments from those suffering from caliber envy.
 
42! said:
But the FBI runs checks and then says you're not a PP.............

All this talk of 9mm, .40, .45 and no one is standing up for the 10mm
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Or .357sig. Talk about a red headed stepchild. It combines a 40 with a 9 but it’s like nobody wants them to join forces.
 
DPR said:
Or .357sig. Talk about a red headed stepchild. It combines a 40 with a 9 but it’s like nobody wants them to join forces.
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I picked up a Glock 31, which is a .357 Sig, a while ago. It's a neat gun. Not quite sure what I'm going to use it for, maybe pins, but having fun working up a load for it.
 
DeadEyeDan said:
I think the 9mm Luger was first made in 1902 and the first .45 ACP in 1905... so both still being in use by police and military over 114+ year later says something... while the .40 is going the way of the Dodo.
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The fundamental flaw with .40 S&W is the same as .45 GAP: both solutions looking for a problem. I thought the .45 GAP was intriguing and heard of a couple LEO departments adopting and loving it, but the advantage was just too small to justify the expense of broad adoption.

Mountain said:
The other comical argument is mag capacity when people start to say "OMG you gonna die with less than X rounds." This is the most common argument for 9mm apologists. So who was the last person on NES who ran out of rounds in a SD situation? For that matter, who was the last (non mil, non LEO) person on NES who fired a shot in self defense? Who was the last person who even had to draw in self defense?
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I feel both ways on this capacity issue. On one hand the conventional wisdom on an average firearm use is 3 rounds within 3 seconds within 3 yards. So a pre-ban 13-rd .45 ACP mag has 4.3x the average required and a 15-rd 9mm mag has 5.0x the average required. Both are very well-equipped if arguing capacity.

On the other hand, you might be that outlier that has a longer-distance engagement exchanging fire while ducking around a car or wall, or multiple assailants, or have a mag malfunction.

It's all about balancing risk and convenience. I'm unlikely to have a lethal force encounter, even less likely to use over 3rds, even less likely to experience a mag malfunction. But I find carrying 30rds across 2-3 magazines is no burden.
 
allen-1 said:
I picked up a Glock 31, which is a .357 Sig, a while ago. It's a neat gun. Not quite sure what I'm going to use it for, maybe pins, but having fun working up a load for it.
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Reloading .357 Sig sounds painful...
 
MarkT said:
Reloading .357 Sig sounds painful...
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I reload 9mm on a Dillon XL650, a fair bit of it because I shoot quite a bit of it. So, I bought the quick change conversion including the powder measure, and swapping over is pretty easy. The hardest part for me has been setting the crimp correctly because all I've done so far is straight wall 9mm and this is a bottleneck.

Learning to load 9mm has been a learning process, this is too.

I won a certificate, and I had enough 9mm Glocks, and didn't want a .45; the 31 appealed to me.
 
allen-1 said:
I reload 9mm on a Dillon XL650, a fair bit of it because I shoot quite a bit of it. So, I bought the quick change conversion including the powder measure, and swapping over is pretty easy. The hardest part for me has been setting the crimp correctly because all I've done so far is straight wall 9mm and this is a bottleneck.

Learning to load 9mm has been a learning process, this is too.

I won a certificate, and I had enough 9mm Glocks, and didn't want a .45; the 31 appealed to me.
Click to expand...

You would need to case trim the .357 Sig, right? That's the part that sounds painful to me. I reload 9mm, 45 acp, and 30-06. It's the case prep for the 30-06 that I dislike the most.
 
Brewer said:
The fundamental flaw with .40 S&W is the same as .45 GAP: both solutions looking for a problem. I thought the .45 GAP was intriguing and heard of a couple LEO departments adopting and loving it, but the advantage was just too small to justify the expense of broad adoption.


I feel both ways on this capacity issue. On one hand the conventional wisdom on an average firearm use is 3 rounds within 3 seconds within 3 yards. So a pre-ban 13-rd .45 ACP mag has 4.3x the average required and a 15-rd 9mm mag has 5.0x the average required. Both are very well-equipped if arguing capacity.

On the other hand, you might be that outlier that has a longer-distance engagement exchanging fire while ducking around a car or wall, or multiple assailants, or have a mag malfunction.

It's all about balancing risk and convenience. I'm unlikely to have a lethal force encounter, even less likely to use over 3rds, even less likely to experience a mag malfunction. But I find carrying 30rds across 2-3 magazines is no burden.
Click to expand...

I completely agree, and you make logical points. My main issue is with the crowd that damn near goes nuts if you suggest something other than a higher capacity 9mm.
 
MarkT said:
You would need to case trim the .357 Sig, right? That's the part that sounds painful to me. I reload 9mm, 45 acp, and 30-06. It's the case prep for the 30-06 that I dislike the most.
Click to expand...

No. No case trimming required. I'm using .357sig cases, just have to clean them, then run them through usual cycle - deprime, prime, powder, bullet, seat, crimp.
 
I know this thread is about 9mm but there’s a lot of smack being talked about the 40.
Tonight @1919FAN did some testing with some of the lowly 40 S&W
Left to right is a Ranger bonded. Ranger T and lastly a Silvertip.
I still choose a 9 or a 45. I wouldn’t feel undergunned with a 40 though.
Penetration was all 13”-14” with some serious permanent cavities. I didn’t get good pics due to glare. Too many shots on the blocks now to get a good pic but next time I’ll try to bring the block home and “polish” it with a heat gun for a nice clear view.
5F9327F0-924D-474F-ABA4-034183B152F0.jpeg C06C3C19-EA4F-4976-815C-594A62B7CFF3.jpeg 74AF0810-22AF-4EEE-B150-E00527842E33.jpeg D0650D73-2593-4342-B29C-50E7F8A16395.jpeg
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
I know this thread is about 9mm but there’s a lot of smack being talked about the 40.
Tonight @1919FAN did some testing with some of the lowly 40 S&W
Left to right is a Ranger bonded. Ranger T and lastly a Silvertip.
I still choose a 9 or a 45. I wouldn’t feel undergunned with a 40 though.
Penetration was all 13”-14” with some serious permanent cavities. I didn’t get good pics due to glare. Too many shots on the blocks now to get a good pic but next time I’ll try to bring the block home and “polish” it with a heat gun for a nice clear view.
View attachment 287832 View attachment 287833 View attachment 287834 View attachment 287835
Click to expand...
Third pic looks evil
 

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