An USPSA/IDPA/IPSC etc. questions

Tackdriver VillenTactical

Tackdriver VillenTactical

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I don't want anyone to be insulted. That is not my goal in this post.

I have been observing (on a very casual basis) shooting competitions at Harvard. Having watched these competitions, I observe stages that do not stress tactics, or at least there is no emphasis on real world tactics. For example, speed and accuracy are stressed but seeking appropriate cover properly, is not. Sure as part of one of these shooting stages you may need to get behind a barricade, but are you penalized for not having the maximum amount of your body behind cover? I believe shooting in these events condition one to jepoardize their own safety in the event of real world gunfights, and that is my biggest reason for not competing in them.

So I guess my question is, is there a shooting league/format that is more real world based?

Again, I hope no one is offended, that isn't my intention.

Dave
 
What you have most likely seen are USPSA/IPSC matches. The goal is to get as many points on target as quickly as possible. While the sport started with roots in self defense, it is a competition. (game)
IDPA was formed as an alternative to IPSC/USPSA with thoughts of being practical and relevant to real world tactics. (use of cover, concealment of equipment, etc) However, they are both games. We keep score with time and points on target, not surviving.
Both are enjoyable and teach you good, safe gun handling which can be applied in many real world situations.
Practical shooters are some of the fastest, best, most accurate shooters in the world and are highly sought out by military and law enforcement for training purposes.

PS. If you want real tactical, gun fight situations, look up the NTI.
Ref here. http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/NTIEvent/alive.html
 
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They are both games. While IDPA is perhaps a bit more defense oriented than USPSA, it is still, at heart, a game. And once you put people on a timer and reward them for doing things quickly, competitors do things to win that they wouldn't (or shouldn't) in a defensive situation.

USPSA does not require the use of cover. IDPA does, but that is a judgment call by the safety officer, and it can be difficult call to make, particularly if you have a master class shooter moving very fast. IDPA might be more up your alley than USPSA, but you'll find that it is still a game. Now, you can choose to shoot it more "tactically" if you wish -- your times may not be as competitive, but that's your choice.

IDPA tries to be more "realistic", but in the process that results in a lot of rules that can be a bit arbitrary. Some of them seem downright foolish.

That said, they both involve practice at shooting quickly and accurately, drawing quickly, shooting while moving, shooting at moving targets, shooting from awkward positions, reloading quickly, etc. I find those skills to be useful, and the competition encourages me to practice a lot more. It's also a heck of a lot of fun.

I'm not aware of a shooting sport that is more defensive-minded than IDPA.

PS. If you want real tactical, gun fight situations, look up the NTI.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's about the only one. But it is once a year.
 
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Gun games are not gunfighting. While IDPA has rules that are slightly more "tactical" than other sports, it's still a game where the object is shoot fast and accurately while staying within the rules. It's not a game where "not getting shot" is a consideration.

but are you penalized for not having the maximum amount of your body behind cover?
Click to expand...

In IDPA, yes, you'll be penalized for not being mostly behind cover.

I believe shooting in these events condition one to jepoardize their own safety in the event of real world gunfights, and that is my biggest reason for not competing in them.
Click to expand...

If you can already shoot as quickly and accurately as a master/A-class shooter, I think that's reasonable. Many big-name defensive trainers choose to no longer take the time to shoot gun-games, after honing their skills making Master class and winning a few Championships. Are you shooting at that level? If not, most people find gun-games make them far better shooters.
 
TheRoland said:
, most people find gun-games make them far better shooters.
Click to expand...

Yep, if you can not put quick accurate shots on target with the limited to no stress of a match, then you are certainly not going to be able to do it during real world stress. Matches test the fundamentals, you can learn tactic at a class. One will benefit the other
 
M1911 said:
they both involve practice at shooting quickly and accurately, drawing quickly, shooting while moving, shooting at moving targets, shooting from awkward positions, reloading quickly, etc. I find those skills to be useful, and the competition encourages me to practice a lot more. It's also a heck of a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why either is a great addition to your shooting hobby. You can get hooked pretty quickly.
 
The "I don't want to learn bad habits" has been a long standing excuse for either not competing or competing and not improving.

Given the choice of going up against a gang banger or a USPSA GM, I'll take the gang banger any day.

David E.
 
Either game will teach speed and accuracy. I'd rather be able to take a tight shot at 15 yards than be "tactically correct" and sneek up and shoot from the edge of the doorway. Competition will force you to learn to shoot any platform (rifle, pistol, shotgun) if you choose to participate.
If you think there is no stress, you've never seen Supermoto's hands shaking when he finishes a stage, nor seen someone with a bruise on his palm from slamming a mag in on an unloaded pistol start in a multigun stage.
Not to be insulting, but, if you can't tell the difference between a "game" and "real life", should you be carrying a gun?[grin]
 
Tackdriver said:
I don't want anyone to be insulted. That is not my goal in this post.

I have been observing (on a very casual basis) shooting competitions at Harvard. Having watched these competitions, I observe stages that do not stress tactics, or at least there is no emphasis on real world tactics. For example, speed and accuracy are stressed but seeking appropriate cover properly, is not. Sure as part of one of these shooting stages you may need to get behind a barricade, but are you penalized for not having the maximum amount of your body behind cover? I believe shooting in these events condition one to jepoardize their own safety in the event of real world gunfights, and that is my biggest reason for not competing in them.

So I guess my question is, is there a shooting league/format that is more real world based?

Again, I hope no one is offended, that isn't my intention.

Dave
Click to expand...
You are probably watching USPSA matches.

you are required to use cover in IDPA. However, my personal experience is that being penalized for lack of cover is inconsistent during the IDPA matches I go to. Some SO's are definitely more lax than others, while others are very stringent and will give you a procedural penalty very quickly. I personally try to use as much cover as I can during the matches.

But the bottom line is that both are games meant to inject some level of dynamics into your handgun shooting and allow you to practice under a certain level of stress.
 
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Tackdriver, why don't you give an IDPA match a try? You might decide that you like it, or you might decide that you don't, but then you'll be making your decision based on direct experience.
 
You should go to a uspsa match, get your ass handed to you like every LEO, SWAT guy does. Then you will have a base line on your fundamental. Chose to be a better shooter, not another trainer that does not have the shooting fundamental to do well on a no stress paper course
 
Tackdriver said:
I believe shooting in these events condition one to jepoardize their own safety in the event of real world gunfights, and that is my biggest reason for not competing in them.

So I guess my question is, is there a shooting league/format that is more real world based?

Dave
Click to expand...

Shoot the match the way you want, get the skills you want. and don't worry about playing the "game".
 
FSTC said:
Shoot the match the way you want, get the skills you want. and don't worry about playing the "game".
Click to expand...

That's always an option. Nobody's going to penalize you for using cover really well, and it's not like the penalties are that bad anyways. There's a certain shooter around here that regularly picks up huge FTDR penalties (the worst in IDPA short of a DQ) and still comes close to winning the matches overall.

I'm really curious what sort of frustrated reply I missed [grin].
 
I've only been shooting IDPA since April, and haven't tried USPSA, so my experience is limited. That said, I think IPDA is the closest thing you'll find where you can simulate real life scenarios, to the extent that you can recreate that while shooting paper and keeping everyone safe. I've learned a lot of skills that that are directly applicable to a self-defense situations: quick draw from concealment, reload, how to deal with an equipment malfunction, shooting on the move, use of cover, threat vs. non-threat, etc.) I'm not a HSLD operator by any sense of the imagination, but I'm a lot more prepared for a self-defense situation today that I was 6 months ago. And yes, I got a procedural penalty this past Saturday for not using cover. [grin]
 
Let's be honest... if you get in a gunfight against 10-15 people, armed only with a handgun, you're dead. That's your real world experience - cover or not.
 
Yep, if you can not put quick accurate shots on target with the limited to no stress of a match, then you are certainly not going to be able to do it during real world stress.
Click to expand...
One of our mutual friends tells me he experienced less stress and easier shooting in real gunfights in the sandbox than on stages at Harvard (but I won't mention his name on the forum)

You should go to a uspsa match, get your ass handed to you like every LEO, SWAT guy does. Then you will have a base line on your fundamental. Chose to be a better shooter, not another trainer that does not have the shooting fundamental to do well on a no stress paper course
Click to expand...

Or, he could light up a Newport and tell everyone who will listen that he has a higher survivability quotient that the guy who won the match.
 
Supermoto said:
You should go to a uspsa match, get your ass handed to you like every LEO, SWAT guy does. Then you will have a base line on your fundamental. Chose to be a better shooter, not another trainer that does not have the shooting fundamental to do well on a no stress paper course
Click to expand...

Little over the top on that. There are MANY LEO regular shooters that do quite well with standard firearms and duty ammo. Check last Harvard results.

To Tackdriver: There will never be a game that is tactical until there is someone shooting back. Playing these games increases your skill with your chosen firearm under a condition of elevated stress. The stress can be self induced or from competition with others. Either way, your basic skills are tested and you hopefully improve as time goes on.

You get out of it what you put into it. Watching gives you no real way to gain feedback. Kinda like watching a baseball game and telling someone how easy it is to hit that 95MPH pitch. Unless you have done it or tried it, you have no idea.

I won't tell you try IDPA or try USPSA but I will tell you that NOT trying either you are doing an injustice to yourself. Trigger time is trigger time no matter what it is. Testing yourself and your abilities against others, gives you feedback on what you need to work on for the "real life" encounter.

If you approach these games in a positive manner and try to get as much out of it as you can, you will find them to be very rewarding.

As to Rob's comment, I have 2 friends that have told me they feel the scenarios they participated in on the range at matches prepared them for real life. One had an article done in a magazine by Ayoob where he basically said his first dealing with threats in Afghanistan was like an easy IDPA stage he had shot at Pioneer when we used to work the NE Regionals together.

Do yourself a favor. Get off the bench and into the game and then make a decision. If you need any help starting out, contact me. I am NOT a master class shooter but I am sure I can point you the right way on a range [wink]
 
TY43215 said:
Little over the top on that. There are MANY LEO regular shooters that do quite well with standard firearms and duty ammo. Check last Harvard results.
Click to expand...

All LEOs that have been shooting the game for years. They saw the benefit of the game and how it would develop their fundamentals. They became better shooters and moved up the ranks, just like all the non LEO shooters that start at the bottom and move up. You know what they all had in common? They worked hard at their skill. You know what all the people that finish at the bottom, then never come back have in common? They made excuses
 
Tackdriver - the games are about having fun shooting. You can be as casual or as serious as you like in your drive to improve your skills on many levels (fundamentals, tacticoolness, mental focus, self control, stage breakdown ect...). You'll never know what you are missing until you step out of the box you are confining yourself in.
 
Most of the post here touch on what I think are the greatest benefits of action shooting - disregarding tactics:

Safe firearm manipulation and handling under stress; Learning to safely run with a loaded firearm; Learning to hit a target from 3 feet to 50 yards when adrenaline blurs your vision and makes your heart race; Learning that if a pistol doesn't run 100% your f@#$ed; Learning to shoot while moving; Learning to expeditiously reload; Learning how to shoot with a flashlight; Learning to control recoil; Learning to ... well I could go on ...
 
Nuke8401 said:
The "I don't want to learn bad habits" has been a long standing excuse for either not competing or competing and not improving.

Given the choice of going up against a gang banger or a USPSA GM, I'll take the gang banger any day.

David E.
Click to expand...

Meh, I think the average person would be better off against a gang banger than a USPSA 'C' shooter.

The USPSA magazine ran a story about this 3-4 years ago. The author, who ran matches (in TX I think), had received a call from someone who had done a few competitions with his son a few years back. When the caller mentioned that the son was in the Army and had been deployed to Iraq, the writer feared the worst. Not so. The son had apparently been involved in a particularly intense and close quarters engagement when his M4 stopped running. He was left with is Beretta and a handful of magazines. He managed to dispense with 5 or 6 enemy (can’t remember the exact number) and save himself. He attributed his survival in large part to the limited experience he’d had shooting USPSA. It was a really moving article, I wish I’d saved it.
 
Supermoto said:
All LEOs that have been shooting the game for years. They saw the benefit of the game and how it would develop their fundamentals. They became better shooters and moved up the ranks, just like all the non LEO shooters that start at the bottom and move up. You know what they all had in common? They worked hard at their skill. You know what all the people that finish at the bottom, then never come back have in common? They made excuses
Click to expand...

That statement I will agree with. The first I don't.

Best example of that was the first POSA shoot at S&W a few years back. Many showed up in full gear and were shocked at what they did not know while the regular USPSA/IDPA competitors also had problems with some stages. The LEO/Military that regularly trained AND competed had very few problems.

I also point that this relates ONLY to the first POSA match. The second was lame


I think it takes both to succeed as the OP seems to want to do.
 

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