Posting your opinions and what you own is no problem at all. It's just that you are a brand new non-green member and in two or three posts, they have come across looking like advertisement stuff that is all too familiar. If that's not the case, I apologize, but this post and the other in my .45 thread looked that way. No harm done.
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Are there any subcompact .40s I'm missing?
- Thread starter Kahrmine
- Start date
Posting your opinions and what you own is no problem at all. It's just that you are a brand new non-green member and in two or three posts, they have come across looking like advertisement stuff that is all too familiar. If that's not the case, I apologize, but this post and the other in my .45 thread looked that way. No harm done.
dcmdon
NES Member
It's not about comfort. My shot to shot times with a g27 were nearly 2x what they were with the 26. Last time I checked shot placement was still king.
Ok, so I now own the Walther PPS .40 and the Kahr PM40. I just bought the Kahr and took it for a spin at the range this afternoon. It's a fine, fine gun. The only knock I have on the PPS is that it's just a tiny bit too long and tall for me to conceal carry. This Kahr is perfect size, and since it's a "freestate" version, the trigger is awesome.
I suppose if you're a big/tall dude with big mitts, the PPS may be the way to go. If you've got smallish hands the Kahr is the way. The recoil wasn't too bad at all, though it isn't quite as accurate as the PPS was. It's close, but the PPS edges it out in that respect. My PPS isn't a typical Marxachusetts model, though. It has the lighter S trigger connector and no magazine safety.
I suppose if you're a big/tall dude with big mitts, the PPS may be the way to go. If you've got smallish hands the Kahr is the way. The recoil wasn't too bad at all, though it isn't quite as accurate as the PPS was. It's close, but the PPS edges it out in that respect. My PPS isn't a typical Marxachusetts model, though. It has the lighter S trigger connector and no magazine safety.
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My first pistol was a PM40, I've now been carrying it and shooting it for years with no complaints. It never had a failure of any sort until the mag spring completely wore out and couldn't feed rounds anymore. New mag spring and its gtg again.
.40 in a compact cons are grossly over stated. I've shot both 9 and 40 versions in many compacts and the 40 isn't THAT much more recoil. In a defensive situation, I'll gladly take the slight recoil increase for the extra oomph. Also, 1000s of rounds out of my pm40 (smallest 40 made to my knowledge) and nothing is falling apart or breaking. The pm40 is so small it goes everywhere with my, I have no excuse not to carry it.
.40 in a compact cons are grossly over stated. I've shot both 9 and 40 versions in many compacts and the 40 isn't THAT much more recoil. In a defensive situation, I'll gladly take the slight recoil increase for the extra oomph. Also, 1000s of rounds out of my pm40 (smallest 40 made to my knowledge) and nothing is falling apart or breaking. The pm40 is so small it goes everywhere with my, I have no excuse not to carry it.
dcmdon
NES Member
Have you ever shot "on the edge" for a combination of speed and accuracy. I've never said people can't handle it. I've said that they are so much faster and more accurate with the 9mm that its not worth the extra "oomph".
Especially in a .40.
Care to post a vid of you shooting the PM40 for us to critique?
I can count on a couple of fingers the number of people I've seen shoot it well in roughly 300 students over the last 10 years. Many of whom were not beginners.
Especially in a .40.
Care to post a vid of you shooting the PM40 for us to critique?
I can count on a couple of fingers the number of people I've seen shoot it well in roughly 300 students over the last 10 years. Many of whom were not beginners.
+1 I carry a g27 4 gen I use180 gr. at the range. Carry 155 gr. sliver tips.
How fast? Are you moving? Is the target moving?
dcmdon
NES Member
Defensive shooting means putting as much lead downrange as possible as quickly as possible, with acceptable accuracy.
So the next question is what are your split times?
My point has always been that for a given accuracy people are usually much faster with a 9. In my case, with a small gun, I'm almost twice as fast with a 9.
This is based on opportunities to shoot the G26 against the G27 and the PM9 against the PM40, side by side.
So, I'm not saying I can't "handle" the recoil of the .40. I'm saying that with small guns my recovery is much faster with the 9.
The way it works for me, I can double tap with the 9. My split is around a quarter of a second. The shots are strung vertically 4-6 in at 7 yards.
The .40 in these guns required me to consciously re-aim between shots.
I also had a chance to shoot a P45 at the same time and found it easier to shoot quickly than the PM40 or the P40.
Don
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40 caliber
NES Member
I think you should really consider g23 over the g27. I carry both but the extra 4 rounds in the magazine of the 23 outweigh the size difference. They both fit in my same supertuck holster as well wthout much difference in feel when carrying. I have added the pinky extension to the mag of my 27. If you lay the two on top of each other, you won't see a lot difference in footprint.
As it is slightly larger, it is also more stable to shoot with providing you with the ability for better accuracy
As it is slightly larger, it is also more stable to shoot with providing you with the ability for better accuracy
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dcmdon
NES Member
I'm not talking about competition. I'm talking real life.
Would you rather hit someone twice with a 9 or once with a .40.
Again, I"m not saying I can't "handle" a .40. (I shoot pins with a .44 magnum, is a lot of fun).
Its no big deal. But guns like the PM40 are just a bear to shoot well. (that means fast AND accurate when it comes to a carry gun)
Don
Would you rather hit someone twice with a 9 or once with a .40.
Again, I"m not saying I can't "handle" a .40. (I shoot pins with a .44 magnum, is a lot of fun).
Its no big deal. But guns like the PM40 are just a bear to shoot well. (that means fast AND accurate when it comes to a carry gun)
Don
If you ever have to shoot your gun in earnest, you will indeed be in a competition -- can you make accurate enough hits faster than the other guy?
And the prize for second place is not something that you will want.
The PM40 I own is not a MA version. It has an awesome trigger which is light and not long. It's funny, I can do double taps with more control than I can with the G23 (which seemed to sway to the right and left a lot between shots).
I dunno, I have no quantifiable numbers to throw at you. I took the gun to the range and ripped off a bunch of shots. Can I shoot it quick? Yes. Can I shoot it accurately? Yes, I believe so, as I was able to shoot the paper at 25 feet over and over (not every shot was dead center mass, but they were within the body outline).
dcmdon
NES Member
Maybe you are anomaly. If so congratulations.
My experience was with non-MA Kahrs by the way.
Ive owned and carried Kahrs for 13 years. The trigger is
long no matter what. Especially the reset.
Don
My experience was with non-MA Kahrs by the way.
Ive owned and carried Kahrs for 13 years. The trigger is
long no matter what. Especially the reset.
Don
I could be full of hot air because I'm a novice and don't know any better. ![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
Or I could be an anomaly. Hey, if you ever want to invite me to your range hit me up. I think this Kahr has an especially sweet trigger. I guess they've been making an "elite" trigger for the last couple years on their newer models. I was really surprised at how quick the reset was for double-taps.
Or I could be an anomaly. Hey, if you ever want to invite me to your range hit me up. I think this Kahr has an especially sweet trigger. I guess they've been making an "elite" trigger for the last couple years on their newer models. I was really surprised at how quick the reset was for double-taps.
dcmdon
NES Member
If you are a novice then you are most likely wrong. But thats fine. We all need to follow our own path.
If you are interested in a comparison, PM me and we can meet at my club to compare my 9mm kahr
With your 40.
You can also try my G35 Gen4 with the stock 40 bbl and an aftermarket 9mm barrel. We can run a test with my timer and multiple targets.
Im actually interested in getting some quantitative data on this topic. Particularly with new shooters.
Don
Ps. My free state P9 was made in Aug 2011.
If you are interested in a comparison, PM me and we can meet at my club to compare my 9mm kahr
With your 40.
You can also try my G35 Gen4 with the stock 40 bbl and an aftermarket 9mm barrel. We can run a test with my timer and multiple targets.
Im actually interested in getting some quantitative data on this topic. Particularly with new shooters.
Don
Ps. My free state P9 was made in Aug 2011.
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Yeah but what is that extra recoil getting you? Maybe 100FPE? Which has little influence on the stopping power at least vs cartridges in the same class, eg, 9mm .40, .45 ACP... with modern ammo. It's just punishment and increase in split times for most people for no real benefit.
I like people who buy sub .40s though, leaves the rest of the inventory alone for everyone else to buy.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I had bought a .40 a few months ago on a lark and then sold it within 2 months of obtaining it. I'll never be buying another one unless I decide to do something like shoot USPSA Limited or something like that, with customized pistol and loads for it. (and that's only because it's about the one thing that caliber doesn't completely suck at. )
-Mike
Personally, I'm in the club that sees no benefit to .40 vs. 9mm, especially in a smaller gun.
However, I just wanted to add that grouping guns like the G27 and PM40 together as "subcompacts" really misses the mark. They're two different size classes.
sub compacts: Glock 26/27, HK P2000SK, SIG P224, XD sub compact and others that I'm not remembering. These all have double-stack mags that hold about 10 rounds in 9mm (with no extension).
pocket autos (or whatever you want to call them): PM9/40, M&P Shield, SIG P290, etc. All of these have a single stack mag that holds 6 rounds of 9mm (with no extension).
Mixing these two basic classes together as "sub compacts" always struck me as wrong.
However, I just wanted to add that grouping guns like the G27 and PM40 together as "subcompacts" really misses the mark. They're two different size classes.
sub compacts: Glock 26/27, HK P2000SK, SIG P224, XD sub compact and others that I'm not remembering. These all have double-stack mags that hold about 10 rounds in 9mm (with no extension).
pocket autos (or whatever you want to call them): PM9/40, M&P Shield, SIG P290, etc. All of these have a single stack mag that holds 6 rounds of 9mm (with no extension).
Mixing these two basic classes together as "sub compacts" always struck me as wrong.
There's almost no chance you're riding the reset for double taps. You're probably slapping the trigger on both shots, which is fine if it doesn't disrupt the sights. If you are releasing the trigger only to the reset point on the second shot, then your splits are probably at least .7, which is not a double tap.
.7s is fast
dcmdon
NES Member
Northeastshooter. Look at this vid. I am a mid pack shooter at local events. The first few seconds show me double tapping a close target. Notice how the gun settles down right back where I started.
The gun is a Les Baer 1911 in .45.
[video=youtube_share;hXF41n3Y8o0]http://youtu.be/hXF41n3Y8o0[/video]
One interesting thing. .40 reloads can be an entirely different story from factory ammo. There is a reason that most people in USPSA Limited shoot .40. And it has NOTHING to do with the recoil of factory ammo. If you want to make Major, you can actually load .40 to make it and have a softer recoiling load than with 9mm or .38 super.
PAULd - The PM9/40 and the G26/27 fit into the same category in one very very large way when it comes to controlability. Neither allows you to use your whole hand on the grip with the standard mag. Thats a big big deal as far as controlability.
I mention this because the Kahr and Glock are simply shaped differently as far as grip/slide proportions. The PM9 is shorter in every way. Thats a given. But the P9 has the same length slide as a 26 and a grip about the same length as a G19.
Also, they both shoot fine with your pinkie dangling out in the air, in 9mm. And they both shoot terribly the same way in .40.
One other thing. I took a USP40 in trade about a year ago. It was much snappier than I expected it to be with standard Blazer.
Having owned a G23 several years ago, I was very pleasantly surprised when I shot a G22 Gen4. It was the best shooting polymer 40, I've ever shot. I don't know what it was, but it was much less snappy than either the USP or a Gen 3 G22.
If someone I knew had their heart set on a polymer .40, I'd recommend the G22 Gen4 hands down.
Don
The gun is a Les Baer 1911 in .45.
[video=youtube_share;hXF41n3Y8o0]http://youtu.be/hXF41n3Y8o0[/video]
One interesting thing. .40 reloads can be an entirely different story from factory ammo. There is a reason that most people in USPSA Limited shoot .40. And it has NOTHING to do with the recoil of factory ammo. If you want to make Major, you can actually load .40 to make it and have a softer recoiling load than with 9mm or .38 super.
PAULd - The PM9/40 and the G26/27 fit into the same category in one very very large way when it comes to controlability. Neither allows you to use your whole hand on the grip with the standard mag. Thats a big big deal as far as controlability.
I mention this because the Kahr and Glock are simply shaped differently as far as grip/slide proportions. The PM9 is shorter in every way. Thats a given. But the P9 has the same length slide as a 26 and a grip about the same length as a G19.
Also, they both shoot fine with your pinkie dangling out in the air, in 9mm. And they both shoot terribly the same way in .40.
One other thing. I took a USP40 in trade about a year ago. It was much snappier than I expected it to be with standard Blazer.
Having owned a G23 several years ago, I was very pleasantly surprised when I shot a G22 Gen4. It was the best shooting polymer 40, I've ever shot. I don't know what it was, but it was much less snappy than either the USP or a Gen 3 G22.
If someone I knew had their heart set on a polymer .40, I'd recommend the G22 Gen4 hands down.
Don
Please let me know what 170pf 40 load feels softer than a 130pf 9mm.
dcmdon
NES Member
I'm talking for a given PF. Not major v minor. I was also trying to remove the tweaks made when loading for use with a comp from the discussion.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest. The point I'm trying to make is that .40 hand loads don't necessarily have the same snappiness to the that factory stuff does.
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I have both a PM9 and a HK P2000SK (same size as a G26) and at least for me, I have to disagree. I can get much better purchase and controllability with the HK. I've also shot a G26 a number of times and it was essentially equivalent to the HK in this regard. If I use the flush grip on the HK my pinky is dangling but I can get a bit of it on the grip. If I use the mag with the angled grip extension, it's even better.
The PM9 has an even shorter grip plus the grip is narrow and small front to back AND the distance from the front of the trigger to the back of the grip is substantially shorter.
So, in short, I disagree that the controllability is the same.
Glocks have a short reset. I've got 4 Kahrs, all with the Elite trigger. They are good guns, but the rest is not short. The reset is quite long.
The advantage of the PM9 over a Glock 26 is that the PM9 is thinner and will fit in a pocket. That is it. Capacity, reset, etc., go to the Glock. But since I'm looking for pocket gun, the PM9 fits that bill for me but the Glock 26 does not. YMMV.
The advantage of the PM9 over a Glock 26 is that the PM9 is thinner and will fit in a pocket. That is it. Capacity, reset, etc., go to the Glock. But since I'm looking for pocket gun, the PM9 fits that bill for me but the Glock 26 does not. YMMV.
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