Attorney/Lawyer what do people use?

[center442]

Well forget about lawyer, I guess if I ever ended up in that situation, kill the bad guy and then myself!

I never realized how much money it was.

Also, keep in mind that the 100k fee is just the lawyer's fee. If your defense requires that expert witnesses be brought in to explain things to the jury, those expenses get added on top of the initial bill. Legal costs are one of the reasons that people take a plea deal. Pulling that trigger for self defense may be the most expensive round you ever fire.

 

[MST_2009]

Also, keep in mind that the 100k fee is just the lawyer's fee. If your defense requires that expert witnesses be brought in to explain things to the jury, those expenses get added on top of the initial bill. Legal costs are one of the reasons that people take a plea deal. Pulling that trigger for self defense may be the most expensive round you ever fire.

Yup. Basically you would be paying for the rest of your life one way or another.

 

[center442]

this thread is running off the rails real fast.

i started this thread to possibly get a few defense attorneys numbers on hand, so far i got Kevin Reddington. and im pretty sure i could NEVER afford him. unless he takes payments.


and qqac

their was a thread started here a few months ago by a LEO/Detective. and he said that if we ever were in a situation to SHUT UP! and that it is HIS JOB TO PUT US BEHIND BARS! no matter what! he basically said that if you talked and messed something up that HE would find it and lock you away.

i will try searching for it and add the link here.

it was a very good read.


but again. i dont want this getting locked.

i understand not talking to police. this thread is for what comes after not talking to police. WHO would YOU talk to?

Rick, my $.02:

Discuss this possibility ahead of time with your wife, girlfriend, relative, or trusted friend. Preferably someone with a cool head. You want someone who can think calmly, because after a shooting you won't be. Call that person and let them get the legal wheels in motion. Even if the attorney they call only handles civil matters, he or she should know a criminal defense attorney and can make a referral. Any lawyer worth his or her salt should know when an expert in another area of law is needed, just as a good primary care physician knows who to refer you to for a particular medical condition.

If you're in police custody, or in the emergency room, your access to the outside world is going to be limited. You need someone on the outside that can act on your behalf and in your best interests. If you are indicted, you'll have the time to acquire the services of someone like Kevin Reddington.

Your initial legal representation is to prevent you from doing any damage to your case and your defense. That lawyer is like a paramedic. Their job is to prevent further deterioration, stabilize you, and get you to the surgeon.

My wife is aware of what she should do if something like this should happen. Whether or not she follows those directions hinges on how she feels about me at the moment.

 

[Grimlock]

Rick, my $.02:

Discuss this possibility ahead of time with your wife, girlfriend, relative, or trusted friend. Preferably someone with a cool head. You want someone who can think calmly, because after a shooting you won't be. Call that person and let them get the legal wheels in motion. Even if the attorney they call only handles civil matters, he or she should know a criminal defense attorney and can make a referral. Any lawyer worth his or her salt should know when an expert in another area of law is needed, just as a good primary care physician knows who to refer you to for a particular medical condition.

If you're in police custody, or in the emergency room, your access to the outside world is going to be limited. You need someone on the outside that can act on your behalf and in your best interests. If you are indicted, you'll have the time to acquire the services of someone like Kevin Reddington.

Your initial legal representation is to prevent you from doing any damage to your case and your defense. That lawyer is like a paramedic. Their job is to prevent further deterioration, stabilize you, and get you to the surgeon.

My wife is aware of what she should do if something like this should happen. Whether or not she follows those directions hinges on how she feels about me at the moment.

+1 Sound advice.

 

[IrradiatedBacon]

If you establish your actions were justified, and the police conclude that is the case, the matter will not reach indictment. That is how convincing a LEO in the first instance can save you from going in front of a jury later.

This is real life, not an episode of Law and Order.

 

[terraformer]

This is real life, not an episode of Law and Order.

 

[Rick1987]

Rick, my $.02:

Discuss this possibility ahead of time with your wife, girlfriend, relative, or trusted friend. Preferably someone with a cool head. You want someone who can think calmly, because after a shooting you won't be. Call that person and let them get the legal wheels in motion. Even if the attorney they call only handles civil matters, he or she should know a criminal defense attorney and can make a referral. Any lawyer worth his or her salt should know when an expert in another area of law is needed, just as a good primary care physician knows who to refer you to for a particular medical condition.

If you're in police custody, or in the emergency room, your access to the outside world is going to be limited. You need someone on the outside that can act on your behalf and in your best interests. If you are indicted, you'll have the time to acquire the services of someone like Kevin Reddington.

Your initial legal representation is to prevent you from doing any damage to your case and your defense. That lawyer is like a paramedic. Their job is to prevent further deterioration, stabilize you, and get you to the surgeon.

My wife is aware of what she should do if something like this should happen. Whether or not she follows those directions hinges on how she feels about me at the moment.

Thank you, that is great advice.

I stored kevins number on my phone. If I ever needed to call him and I didn't have any money or little money I'm sure be could refer me to someone cheaper. No? I wouldn't think he would just tell me "sorry can't help you, good luck".


Would anyone recommend keeping a number on their phone for someone at GOAL? Or even here at NES?

I know GOAL and comm2A have helped people in trouble like the guy from Lowell, and I know if you guys were notified that one of your fellow NES brothers were in trouble, you guys would do everything to help, as would I.

 

[M1911]

Would anyone recommend keeping a number on their phone for someone at GOAL? Or even here at NES?

When you are being held in jail or at a police station and you need someone to Habeus your Corpus, neither GOAL nor NES are going to help. You need a lawyer, pronto. Probably your best bet would be to have the phone number of a trusted family member who you can always contact, as your lawyer of choice may be on vacation or incommunicado. Have your family member track down your lawyer.

 

[jar]

When you are being held in jail or at a police station and you need someone to Habeus your Corpus, neither GOAL nor NES are going to help. You need a lawyer, pronto. Probably your best bet would be to have the phone number of a trusted family member who you can always contact, as your lawyer of choice may be on vacation or incommunicado. Have your family member track down your lawyer.

THIS. Also, I've been told not to rely on numbers in your phone, as you may or may not be allowed access to it. I carry business cards in my wallet.

 

[center442]

When you are being held in jail or at a police station and you need someone to Habeus your Corpus, neither GOAL nor NES are going to help. You need a lawyer, pronto. Probably your best bet would be to have the phone number of a trusted family member who you can always contact, as your lawyer of choice may be on vacation or incommunicado. Have your family member track down your lawyer.

Excellent advice. GOAL, NRA, COMM2A, SAF, etc. may get involved after the fact if your case involves gun rights, but you are responsible for defending yourself against a criminal charge. If the lawyer in the contact list on your cell phone can't be reached, you need to contact another attorney. Sitting at the police station at 3:00am might seem important to you, but an attorney asleep at home might not have the same viewpoint. You need someone who is willing to make the effort to find an attorney who is going to get there ASAP.

Unless you're an habitual offender, getting arrested is very scary. You don't know what to expect. You don't know what's going to happen. You're suddenly thrust into a system that you probably have zero experience with. This is no place for on the job training.

STFU. Make your phone call, and keep the conversation brief. "Hi, honey. I've been involved in a self-defense shooting, I'm at the police station and I need you to get a lawyer for me." Then STFU again. There'll be plenty of time later to tell your wife/relative/friend all the details.

And don't go home and post all the info on NES.

 

[RichM]

I've got my course of action memorized:

1. Quick! Post a text to NES asking for all of you to keep an eye on the news...
2. Ask for referrals to a competent counselor...
3. Say a quick prayer to Darius...
4. Send a properly-worded email to Scriv after I spell-check it twice asking for his advice...
5. Call my mother after my training kicks in...

Seriously... this thread has been good... I talked over several of the points with my wife, and I showed the "Don't Talk" video to my father over the weekend.

I will tell you that litigation is very expensive... especially if there is both a criminal phase and a civil phase. If you remember the Monson dog incident, the bill for the defense, the restitution, the appeal, and the civil defense cost the family over $50,000. I don't know what the homeowner's insurance company paid...

It's a scary proposition. Mark's thread was very helpful, as was the advice from DrGrant, Terra, and M1911. The only time I can remember recently where a defensive shooting in MA was resolved fairly quickly was the one in Wilbraham. The homeowner retreated up his stairs to the 2nd level, and the intruder continued advancing with a broken bottle or glass. Even in those clear circumstances, the local DA was looking to find a way to prosecute the homeowner.

Remember how some of the prosecutors view the law: when DA Bennett was made aware of the Westfield shooting, his response was to say that he could "find no law that allowed" the MG shoot. He has repeatedly interpreted the law in the hardest light possible for the law-abiding gun owner.

ETA: Center442 and several others have added very wise posts in this thread, too... I don't want to miss anyone...

 

[TWBARRETT]

 

[center442]

It's a scary proposition. Mark's thread was very helpful, as was the advice from DrGrant, Terra, and M1911. The only time I can remember recently where a defensive shooting in MA was resolved fairly quickly was the one in Wilbraham. The homeowner retreated up his stairs to the 2nd level, and the intruder continued advancing with a broken bottle or glass. Even in those clear circumstances, the local DA was looking to find a way to prosecute the homeowner.

Remember how some of the prosecutors view the law: when DA Bennett was made aware of the Westfield shooting, his response was to say that he could "find no law that allowed" the MG shoot. He has repeatedly interpreted the law in the hardest light possible for the law-abiding gun owner.

Remember the Paul Langone hospital shooting back in 2009? It happened on October 27th. It wasn't until March 31st of 2010 that the DA ruled the shooting justified and declined to press criminal charges. A five month investigation before the guy could breath a sigh of relief. I thought that was one of the cleanest shoots I ever heard of.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I have to wonder how much of that time the DA spent trying to find something to charge the guy with.

 

[terraformer]

Remember the Paul Langone hospital shooting back in 2009? It happened on October 27th. It wasn't until March 31st of 2010 that the DA ruled the shooting justified and declined to press criminal charges. A five month investigation before the guy could breath a sigh of relief. I thought that was one of the cleanest shoots I ever heard of.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I have to wonder how much of that time the DA spent trying to find something to charge the guy with.

They didn't care to move quick. It gave time for anything bad about the guy to bubble to the surface. It's not in the best interest of the DA to make weak cases run quick. Enough time and sunlight can make anyone look bad.

 

[M1911]

A five month investigation before the guy could breath a sigh of relief. I thought that was one of the cleanest shoots I ever heard of.

IIRC, the psycho was sitting on top of his doctor's chest stabbing her with a knife, when Langone came through the door, challenged him, and then shot. The doctor was very lucky to survive.

I believe that Langone was not working during much of the aftermath. And I bet he spent a bunch of money on a lawyer. The DA's actions are just incomprehensible.

 

[m60lmg]

I've thought about that before, which is why I always carry pepper spray if i'm carrying a firearm.

Yea good advice. I think I am going to just get some good pepper spray and only carry when I go to Boston. Seems like even if you survive the attack you still lose your life.

 

[Billsail]

They didn't care to move quick. It gave time for anything bad about the guy to bubble to the surface. It's not in the best interest of the DA to make weak cases run quick. Enough time and sunlight can make anyone look bad.

You realize of course, that gives the prosecution time to make sure that anyone with a modicum of a chance, that they have ever been anything in their lifetime, but "above the law", should be scrutinized and picked apart and brought to the carpet to answer to any to any doubts that they had anything but noble intentions when they defended the life of another human being. [/sarcasm]...added only because I got in trouble before, for a similar statement.

 

[M1911]

Yea good advice. I think I am going to just get some good pepper spray and only carry when I go to Boston. Seems like even if you survive the attack you still lose your life.

I met a fellow who used pepper spray against a perp who assaulted him near Buffalo, NY. It took a year before the DA agreed not to charge him and he spent $10k on legal fees. And this was more than 10 years ago, so costs have undoubtedly gone up.

 

[Kneecapper]

wow I agree that now I dont even want a gun for self defense in or out of my home. Just to say you should need it when you "might die" is ridiculous because you can not predict someones actions or tell if any gesture the criminal lets say is making will be your last breath. Pepper Spray is on my mind now.

 

[Dsk1000]

I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

A legal system that makes you fearful of defending yourself is a miscarriage of justice.

 

[Boghog1]

Damn 4 post and so far 2 of the 2 I have read have been spot on

 

[Half Cocked]

Ok..... A couple of things to address...... If involved in a self defense shooting and legal representation is needed you want to have a lawyer who has trial experience in criminal prosecutions and who has experience with murder trials. No disrespect to "firearms" lawyers but there is a world of difference between advocating for someone with a LTC appeal and trying a murder case.

I am also going to somewhat defend qqac in what I think he was trying to say. I believe that qqac was being brutally honest and was not necessarily giving poor advice. I think that it was just not explained well.

What is said and how it is said to the investigating officers at the outset of the investigation is very important and can greatly impact on how the investigation proceeds. There is a difference between saying " I have nothing to say without my lawyer" and saying something along the lines of... "I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney".

Although in both statements you said nothing and invoked your right to an attorney you at least planted the self defense seed with the investigators in the second statement.

This may at least prove to be a difference in whether you are arrested at the scene or not. Remember that the investigators are trying to recreate what happened. If there is just you and a dead guy, no witnesses and no physical evidence besides the gun in your hand the investigators need you to tell them what happened in order to know if it was a cold blooded murder or self defense. If you simply state " I am not talking. I want a lawyer".... The investigators have no idea that it may have been self defense, they have no idea if they will ever get a statement from you, they have no idea if you are going to flee to avoid prosecution etc..... They almost have no choice but to arrest you.

Same scenario but your statement is....."I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney". There is an extremely high likelihood that you do not get arrested at the scene and the matter will be investigated further pending a interview with you and your attorney.

An experienced and knowledgable investigator would rather not arrest you immediately if they do not have to.

I believe that this may be what qqac was attempting to explain. As there is benefit to saying a little more to investigators up front. It is something that lawyers do not want you to know.

If you are arrested at the outset you are going to be spending a hell of a lot of money to get out of the situation. Yes ...you most likely will not be convicted if you do not say anything but in the second scenario you most likely may never get charged and will save an awful lot of money.

The time to consult with an attorney is prior to anything happening to better learn what to do in the event you are in a situation needing them.

Just my .02 not being a lawyer

 

[jar]

Sounds like good advice to me HC, and it does comport with what I've heard from some attorneys. You want to say something like 'that person attacked me and I was in fear for my life, I want to press charges', point out any evidence that should be preserved, and then say you'll cooperate fully with the investigation once your attorney arrives. Then keep your mouth shut.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

 

[Terminator03]

Ok..... A couple of things to address...... If involved in a self defense shooting and legal representation is needed you want to have a lawyer who has trial experience in criminal prosecutions and who has experience with murder trials. No disrespect to "firearms" lawyers but there is a world of difference between advocating for someone with a LTC appeal and trying a murder case.

I am also going to somewhat defend qqac in what I think he was trying to say. I believe that qqac was being brutally honest and was not necessarily giving poor advice. I think that it was just not explained well.

What is said and how it is said to the investigating officers at the outset of the investigation is very important and can greatly impact on how the investigation proceeds. There is a difference between saying " I have nothing to say without my lawyer" and saying something along the lines of... "I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney".

Although in both statements you said nothing and invoked your right to an attorney you at least planted the self defense seed with the investigators in the second statement.

This may at least prove to be a difference in whether you are arrested at the scene or not. Remember that the investigators are trying to recreate what happened. If there is just you and a dead guy, no witnesses and no physical evidence besides the gun in your hand the investigators need you to tell them what happened in order to know if it was a cold blooded murder or self defense. If you simply state " I am not talking. I want a lawyer".... The investigators have no idea that it may have been self defense, they have no idea if they will ever get a statement from you, they have no idea if you are going to flee to avoid prosecution etc..... They almost have no choice but to arrest you.

Same scenario but your statement is....."I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney". There is an extremely high likelihood that you do not get arrested at the scene and the matter will be investigated further pending a interview with you and your attorney.

An experienced and knowledgable investigator would rather not arrest you immediately if they do not have to.

I believe that this may be what qqac was attempting to explain. As there is benefit to saying a little more to investigators up front. It is something that lawyers do not want you to know.

If you are arrested at the outset you are going to be spending a hell of a lot of money to get out of the situation. Yes ...you most likely will not be convicted if you do not say anything but in the second scenario you most likely may never get charged and will save an awful lot of money.

The time to consult with an attorney is prior to anything happening to better learn what to do in the event you are in a situation needing them.

Just my .02 not being a lawyer

What you described here makes a lot of sense to me. Even though, less is always more with regard to speaking to police, in this case it would likely benefit you to be a little bit courteous, as well as planting seeds of self defense instead of letting them just judge the situation solely based on how it appeared (which may not always look like you were the good guy). As you said, you still are not really volunteering any incriminating evidence.

 

[Terminator03]

Sounds like good advice to me HC, and it does comport with what I've heard from some attorneys. You want to say something like 'that person attacked me and I was in fear for my life, I want to press charges', point out any evidence that should be preserved, and then say you'll cooperate fully with the investigation once your attorney arrives. Then keep your mouth shut.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Wow, that seems like it would be a very good statement to make right there, because it is a positive assertion of your innocence rather than once again relying on their sole assessment of what occurred.

 

[Half Cocked]

Even though, less is always more with regard to speaking to police,

You would be surprised at how much you can say to the police without saying anything to the police..

 

[Stef]

You would be surprised at how much you can say to the police without saying anything to the police..

Under the best of circumstances this may certainly be the case. After being involved in a shooting, maybe not so much.

 

[mark056]

Ok..... A couple of things to address...... If involved in a self defense shooting and legal representation is needed you want to have a lawyer who has trial experience in criminal prosecutions and who has experience with murder trials. No disrespect to "firearms" lawyers but there is a world of difference between advocating for someone with a LTC appeal and trying a murder case.

I am also going to somewhat defend qqac in what I think he was trying to say. I believe that qqac was being brutally honest and was not necessarily giving poor advice. I think that it was just not explained well.

What is said and how it is said to the investigating officers at the outset of the investigation is very important and can greatly impact on how the investigation proceeds. There is a difference between saying " I have nothing to say without my lawyer" and saying something along the lines of... "I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney".

Although in both statements you said nothing and invoked your right to an attorney you at least planted the self defense seed with the investigators in the second statement.

This may at least prove to be a difference in whether you are arrested at the scene or not. Remember that the investigators are trying to recreate what happened. If there is just you and a dead guy, no witnesses and no physical evidence besides the gun in your hand the investigators need you to tell them what happened in order to know if it was a cold blooded murder or self defense. If you simply state " I am not talking. I want a lawyer".... The investigators have no idea that it may have been self defense, they have no idea if they will ever get a statement from you, they have no idea if you are going to flee to avoid prosecution etc..... They almost have no choice but to arrest you.

Same scenario but your statement is....."I was in fear officer and would like to give you a statement and cooperate fully with your investigation but it is in my best interest to speak first with my attorney". There is an extremely high likelihood that you do not get arrested at the scene and the matter will be investigated further pending a interview with you and your attorney.

An experienced and knowledgable investigator would rather not arrest you immediately if they do not have to.

I believe that this may be what qqac was attempting to explain. As there is benefit to saying a little more to investigators up front. It is something that lawyers do not want you to know.

If you are arrested at the outset you are going to be spending a hell of a lot of money to get out of the situation. Yes ...you most likely will not be convicted if you do not say anything but in the second scenario you most likely may never get charged and will save an awful lot of money.

The time to consult with an attorney is prior to anything happening to better learn what to do in the event you are in a situation needing them.

Just my .02 not being a lawyer

HC,

What you are saying falls right in line with what I have heard police officers, attorneys and self defense experts say. Good advice IMO. I don't share your optimism that is what qqac is trying to say.

Once again this reinforces my premise that the average citizen who has little dealing with the police has a decided disadvantage over the individual who frequently encounters the police and knows the "system."

Great post !

 

[Len-2A Training]

HC's advice is solid! It also is the same as I teach in the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course.

You need to "set the stage" for self-defense without discussing any details until you consult with your attorney.

I also agree that an expert attorney in getting your LTC is NOT the right person to contact wrt an arraignment for murder/manslaughter. You need the proper expertise from the get-go.

HC, thanks for your words of wisdom!

 

[digitaldon37]

HC's advice is solid! It also is the same as I teach in the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course.

You need to "set the stage" for self-defense without discussing any details until you consult with your attorney.

I also agree that an expert attorney in getting your LTC is NOT the right person to contact wrt an arraignment for murder/manslaughter. You need the proper expertise from the get-go.

HC, thanks for your words of wisdom!

Having not taken that NRA course (though it looks interesting and I think I will at some point) and IANAL...

It seems to me that most officers would be expecting you to say that you're innocent - so my question would be is it just as beneficial to politely state that you wish to speak to your attorney before giving any statement or answering any questions?

I've seen some good suggestions here - mine has been to call any of my friends who are lawyers (6 degrees of separation, every family probably already knows one) at least to get through arraignment and bail.