AZ - Unlikely Opponents To New Concealed Carry Law

[Kevlar]

You might expect gun-shop owners to be big fans of the new state law that will allow adults to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

If so, you'd be wrong.

Asked about it before Friday's signing by Gov. Jan Brewer, many firearms merchants paused, considered their words and started cautiously weighing the law's pluses and minuses. One local firearms instructor and his employer spoke strongly enough against the law's possible effects that gun-rights activists took offense and planned a protest this morning at their store.

The conflicted feelings about the liberalization of concealed-carry laws illustrate a broader division among gun enthusiasts - between the pragmatists willing to accommodate some legal restrictions on guns, and the purists who see restrictions as degrading their constitutionally protected freedoms.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_20db5fcc-8c25-50d9-beaf-dbe131fe0e3f.html.

 

[aklaft]

Actually, they just want to keep teaching CCW classes.

 

[JackDaniels]

Boycott these scumbags. They care more about their wallets than their rights. They don't realize that forfeiting the latter is forfeiting the former.

 

[kevin9]

rat finks

 

[Zappa]

Actually, they just want to keep teaching CCW classes.

I agree.
If a basic gun safety class is no longer required, less people will sign up (and pay) for the classes.
Personally, I'm not opposed to making every first time gun owner take some kind of basic firearms safety class. IIRC, every state already requires hunters to pass a basic hunter safety course before you can even buy your first hunting license. Gun safety shouldn't optional.

 

[AppleSeeds]

At the end of the day, everyone just looks out for their own interests.

 

[06LemansC6]

Personally, I'm not opposed to making every first time gun owner take some kind of basic firearms safety class.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Many states do not require any safety class to purchase a gun. Many do not require it for a concealed carry permit either. In this area NH and VT do not require this and blood is not running in the streets.

I agree that training is a good idea and would recommend it, but I can't agree that it should be a requirement.

 

[JackDaniels]

Good point, Lemans. I don't see how anyone can really argue with that. Proof is pretty much in the pudding isn't it?

 

[Zappa]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Many states do not require any safety class to purchase a gun. Many do not require it for a concealed carry permit either. In this area NH and VT do not require this and blood is not running in the streets.

I agree that training is a good idea and would recommend it, but I can't agree that it should be a requirement.

I didn't say they should make a basic gun safety class mandatory, I said I wasn't opposed to it. As it is now, AZ requires the class as part of their current CCW licensing process, this will go away once this new law takes effect.

The second reference in that post was about all states currently requiring first time hunting license buyers to show proof that they've completed a hunter safety class.

Carrying for CCW and Hunting are two separate things.

 

[Zappa]

keep in mind he's a fudd with no practical or real world experience. he's one of the reasons why 2a rights get trampled on. "i'm ok now, but, but, but... everyone else should be subjected to a .gov class!"

Granted I'm no High-Speed Low-Draw, covert apple bag grabbing Monkey Kung Fu expert operator like you, but anyone who owns a firearm should have a basic understanding of gun safety, be it a pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle or muzzle loader.
Have you ever had a total newbie next to you at the range and witness him loading the rounds in a magazine backwards? I have. How about someone laying a loaded handgun down on the bench with the hammer cocked? Seen that too. A basic knowledge of gun safety shouldn't be optional. And I resent you implying that I'm somehow responsible for diminishing our 2A rights.

 

[Cato]

I agree.
If a basic gun safety class is no longer required, less people will sign up (and pay) for the classes.
Personally, I'm not opposed to making every first time gun owner take some kind of basic firearms safety class. IIRC, every state already requires hunters to pass a basic hunter safety course before you can even buy your first hunting license. Gun safety shouldn't [be] optional.

Do me a favor and stay out of my business. Don't try to tell me what is and is not "optional" in my life.

 

[Zappa]

yep. been there, done that. what's wrong with either one of those? was the gun going to magically jump up and shoot you?

When you call for "Range Clear" to go set up targets, it's disconcerting to see a loaded and cocked weapon laying on the bench while you're walking back to the firing line.

 

[Big_Red]

At the end of the day, everyone just looks out for their own interests.

That.

 

[sig shooter]

I agree.
If a basic gun safety class is no longer required, less people will sign up (and pay) for the classes.
Personally, I'm not opposed to making every first time gun owner take some kind of basic firearms safety class. IIRC, every state already requires hunters to pass a basic hunter safety course before you can even buy your first hunting license. Gun safety shouldn't optional.

Hunting isnt a constitutional right.....Owning a firearm is. Using that logic we should all have a english class before we are allowed to excerise our 1st amendment rights.

 

[buketduder]

I think Self-Defense (owning/carrying a firearm) is more then a Constitutional Right...its a Human Right...

 

[sig shooter]

I think Self-Defense (owning/carrying a firearm) is more then a Constitutional Right...its a Human Right...

Very true.

 

[DickWanner]

The only instructors that are going to lose out in AZ now are going to be the bad ones. The good ones will adapt their classes/courses to teach those who want to learn about safe gun handling/ccw/etc. They could offer short 1 hour basic intro courses that teach all the basics and they could teach longer ones that go more indepth than the current course requirements. Just because the state no longer requires it doesn't mean that people will no longer seek firearms education from qualified instructors.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Hunting isnt a constitutional right.....Owning a firearm is. Using that logic we should all have a english class before we are allowed to excerise our 1st amendment rights.

In the interest of the safety of our children, Every child should have a basic understanding of Firearm Safety. How to safely clear a firearm and place it into a safe condition. The accidental death of a child caused by a firearm rarely occurs because a child familiar with a firarms and their safety is improperly handling it. Rather, most accidental firearms deaths of children occur because they are unfamiliar with firearm safety and "stumble" across a loaded firearm in the home. For the Children, we should require basic firmarm safety and handling in school, just like we teach sexual and drug abuse education. That way, when a child stubbles across a loaded firearm, they can safely deal with the situation.

The only instructors that are going to lose out in AZ now are going to be the bad ones. The good ones will adapt their classes/courses to teach those who want to learn about safe gun handling/ccw/etc. They could offer short 1 hour basic intro courses that teach all the basics and they could teach longer ones that go more indepth than the current course requirements. Just because the state no longer requires it doesn't mean that people will no longer seek firearms education from qualified instructors.

Actually, having to compete with the option of not taking a class will apply further price pressure to classes. Right now, they are mandatory which restricts competition to alternate, accetable classes. Eliminating the legal requirement adds additional competition by forcing the class to present its value against not taking the class. This is much like the affect that mandatory auto insurance has on the price of auto insurance in states that mandate it. Basic rates rise because they no longer have to compete with the option of not having insurance.

Granted I'm no High-Speed Low-Draw, covert apple bag grabbing Monkey Kung Fu expert operator like you, but anyone who owns a firearm should have a basic understanding of gun safety, be it a pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle or muzzle loader.
Have you ever had a total newbie next to you at the range and witness him loading the rounds in a magazine backwards? I have. How about someone laying a loaded handgun down on the bench with the hammer cocked? Seen that too. A basic knowledge of gun safety shouldn't be optional. And I resent you implying that I'm somehow responsible for diminishing our 2A rights.

Your point are arguments for the RANGE to require a basic firearms safety training course and certification. Such a requirement would be perfectly legal and I believe should be strongly encouraged by every range, though it is optional and I would argue against and legal action to require such. Rather, I would encourage my local range to add such a policy and frequent a range that had such a policy more often.

 

[cekim]

In the interest of the safety of our children, Every child should have a basic understanding of Firearm Safety.

This...

You wouldn't have so many 30 somethings at the range loading "boolits" backwards and looking down the barrel wondering why the "pew-pew" won't come out if most kids got some basic instruction at home.

At the end of the day, training requirements sound nice, but there is simply no way on the long time line to prevent their abuse. The slope is too slippery.

You have to take the good with the bad with it comes to freedom, because the "middle ground" is never in the middle and once started moving towards the "rights of the community to regulate your behavior for the 'greater good'", it never moves back the other direction without political violence.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Cekim,

Do you see added Basic Firearms Safety and Handling to the required school curiculm as a regulation of your behavior?

It makes as much sense to me as sex education and drug education in the schools. I believe the estimate is that there are 200 million firearms in the United States, children are bound to come across one at some point or another. For their own safety, we have an obligation to provide them the necessary tools to protect themselves from those firearms by teaching them proper and safe firearms handling.
Yes, I will teach my son and I suspect the vast majority of people reading this will be teaching their children. The children I worry about are the ones who will never see a firearm outside of a movie or a toy until the stumble across a firearm without adult supervision. I would support the addition of a safe firearms handling program at the school in the interest of keeping those kids and mine, should he happen to be near one when they stumble across a firearm, safe.

 

[cekim]

Cekim,

Do you see added Basic Firearms Safety and Handling to the required school curiculm as a regulation of your behavior?

If the local authority controlling school curriculum wants to add that. no. If it is a Federal mandate, yes. If it is a state-wide mandate, maybe... Depends on the structure of the state WRT to school structure.

Once again, school curriculum brings in a whole host of problems with state-run schooling that are much bigger than this one issue.

It doesn't matter what the political ideology (left, right, conservative, libertarian, etc..), you can't correct cultural problems with laws unless they are laws that limit the scope of government. Laws that dictate the behavior of people are pointless at best and the instrument of oppression at worst.

 

[Realtor MA]

At the end of the day, everyone just looks out for their own interests.

And at the beginning and middle too!

They should change the slogan on our money. No more 'In God We Trust" Let's go with "What's in it for Me?"

 

[GSG]

Actually, they just want to keep teaching CCW classes.

No kidding. F*** these dummies.

getting rid of all CCW laws nationwide would probably be the best thing to ever happen to the professional training industry.

You're not kidding.

Personally, I'm not opposed to making every first time gun owner take some kind of basic firearms safety class. IIRC, every state already requires hunters to pass a basic hunter safety course before you can even buy your first hunting license. Gun safety shouldn't optional.

Of course you're not, because you're not a first time gun owner. Every standard you set in your head you already meet, right? Check out the quote I'm posting below.

I think the issue is that you can never legislate safety. It doesn't matter how many courses one takes, it doesn't mean they will use their brain with guns. Ever see the video of DEA Agent Lee Paige shooting himself in the leg in front of a class of Florida schoolchildren? IIRC he was a firearms instructor, so you'd think he wouldn't have broken all those safety rules he did if he paid any attention to the classes he taught.

Not only that, but when you need a gun, you need it ASAP, not when the government deems that you can safely own it. If you live in New Hampshire (and aren't a prohibited person) and your life is threatened at 9:00 a.m., by 9:30 a.m. you can have 3 guns, 1,000 rounds of ammo, and as long as you open carry you can take the pistol with you almost anywhere you go. You can apply for a restraining order and get a gun on the way back home from a gun store, or you can borrow one from a friend until you get your own.

If you live in Massachusetts, if you're threatened at 9 a.m., you can call your local PD to get the application (and see what extra illegal requirements they have, since it's different in all 351 municipalities). You can fill it out, find a Basic Firearms Safety course, schedule it, pay for it, and sit through 3-12 hours of training. You can then schedule an interview with your local CLEO/licensing officer, show up for the interview days or weeks later (whenever they schedule it, remember), pay $100, apply, if you're approved, wait however long it takes for the application to be processed (5-6 weeks if all goes well), then call the police department to find out when it comes in. Keep in mind, the entire time you're waiting for this LTC/FID, it's illegal to have so much as a can of pepper spray in your house.

If your life were threatened, which state would you rather live in? The one where legal self-defense is instantly available to law abiding citizens, or one where you can apply for the right to self defense Monday-Friday, 9 to 5, and provided you aren't unsuitable, you can defend yourself 5 weeks from the date of your interview, providing all goes well?

I didn't get into guns until I felt a need to have them, and it took me months from making the decision "I need a gun" until I could legally have one in my hands in this state.

Guns aren't something we need to protect everyone from like rabid animals or exposed electical wires. No matter who and how we teach people about them, there will always be idiots with guns, and there will always be criminals with guns. We won't change that until we wipe out the human race or drink the Brady Campaign red Kool Aid.

The one thing we can do is make sure that law-abiding citizens aren't totally screwed by the gun laws when they need to protect themselves, and IMHO the best way to do that is to put the same restrictions on law-abiding gun owners that there are on criminals: none.

Please don't take offense from me here, I'm not trying to be unkind, I just think that gun safety should be an individual responsibility, not a state run/controlled one.

Mandatory training solves nothing, especially when the "trainer" learned everything they know in a weekend long NRA instructor course.

Carrying for CCW and Hunting are two separate things.

Protecting your life and obtaining food shouldn't require a government permit or approved training class.

I think Self-Defense (owning/carrying a firearm) is more then a Constitutional Right...its a Human Right...

Why do people forget this? +1 to you.

Once again, school curriculum brings in a whole host of problems with state-run schooling that are much bigger than this one issue.

When we let the gvt. teach our kids the fundamentals of life, we wind up with Lebensborn.

 

[Cato]

Zappa,

Rather than to issue a neg rep behind the scene, why don't you be a man and post your beef in the open forum??

 

[Zappa]

Do me a favor and stay out of my business. Don't try to tell me what is and is not "optional" in my life.

Zappa,
Rather than to issue a neg rep behind the scene, why don't you be a man and post your beef in the open forum??

If you don't believe in gun safety, that's fine, go blow your foot off for all I care, but I just hope I don't end up next to you on the range someday.

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

What would you guys think of only requiring an NRA type certified course? NO GOVERMENT involvement. You just have to show your certificate from the class for a first time purchase. Back in the old days your dad might teach you about a gun, but that just isn't the case as much anymore. I think basic safety is a good idea, but I don't want the government involved. As soon as you have to take that cert to the PD and wait for a permit you will be waiting forever and forking over cash. Just a thought here....what do you guys think?

 

[M1911]

Actually, they just want to keep teaching CCW classes.

Yup.

As an instructor, MA mandatory training put money in my pocket, but I still don't support the law.

What would you guys think of only requiring an NRA type certified course?

I'm an NRA certified instructor. I think people who buy a gun without getting some safety training are foolish. But I simply do not agree with mandatory training, no matter who is providing it (even me).

 

[bostonasphalt2]

In the interest of the safety of our children, Every child should have a basic understanding of Firearm Safety. How to safely clear a firearm and place it into a safe condition. The accidental death of a child caused by a firearm rarely occurs because a child familiar with a firarms and their safety is improperly handling it. Rather, most accidental firearms deaths of children occur because they are unfamiliar with firearm safety and "stumble" across a loaded firearm in the home. For the Children, we should require basic firmarm safety and handling in school, just like we teach sexual and drug abuse education. That way, when a child stubbles across a loaded firearm, they can safely deal with the situation.

Require? no. Is it a good idea to perhaps show this stuff to kids? absolutely. This, however is not a school curriculum issue. Not every parent shares our sentiments towards firearms as we do, and there is nothing saying they must.

 

[June4th]

My kids are just a bit above the Eddie Eagle age (they know that well). I've started teaching them the 4 rules of firearm safety. In addition, I drilled them the steps to clear firearms. They know each type of guns and especially 'the round in the chamber'. They still lack the strength to rack the slide or bolt to clear the round though. Hopefully my older one will be ready for range this summer.

 

[Cato]

If you don't believe in gun safety, that's fine, go blow your foot off for all I care, but I just hope I don't end up next to you on the range someday.

I know that I would never be able to convince you, but the State can not solve all of your problems. There's this thing called individual responsibility.