BATF and < 16" AR-15 barrel question

[vicpinto]

I know that BATF says a barrel needs to conform to a minimum length of 16" by having a flash hider/comp permanently pin and welded to bring the total length to over 16".

My question is: What about a barrel that is already 16" in length before any flash hider/comp is attached? Does the "permanently pin and welded" part of the law still apply? Or would a regular screw on flash hider/comp suffice at that point?

Here's why I ask....

I'm looking into a Bushmaster barrel for my upcoming AR-15 build. Specifically the Patrolman's Carbine barrel which is a true 16" threaded barrel before hider/comp. I am sold on the 16" barrel over the 14.5" barrels that they offer because if the law says I need a minimum of 16" I want that 16" to be real barrel as opposed to a comp/hider to make up the difference. The 16" Patrolman's Carbine barrel comes with a flash hider (no comp is available as an option). So, since I live in the People's Republik I need to replace the hider with a comp. If the above stated "pin and welded" part of the law applies to >16" barrels in Mass then I would like to know.

Thanks,

Victor

 

[benster]

IANAL, but as I understand,as long as the barrel meets the minimum 16", you dont need a comp.

 

[OnTheRoad]

I think pinned / welded applies to any threaded muzzle attachment regardless of barrel length. Wouldn't want you unscrewing your comp and screwing on some other evil item.

 

[drgrant]

If the BBL is 16" then BATFE doesn't care, regardless. The MA
AWB might come into play if this is an MA gun build that will fall
under the MA AWB. (unless your host receiver is preban, then this
most certainly will be a "yes" ). For MA AWB purposes you can't
leave it with a threaded barrel, if that's what you're starting with. In
that case, you'd either have to round off the threads or permanently
attach a brake onto the thing (eg via welding). If there are no
threads then it doesn't matter, you can just use it bare.

-Mike

 

[vicpinto]

If the BBL is 16" then BATFE doesn't care, regardless. The MA
AWB might come into play if this is an MA gun build that will fall
under the MA AWB. (unless your host receiver is preban, then this
most certainly will be a "yes" ). For MA AWB purposes you can't
leave it with a threaded barrel, if that's what you're starting with. In
that case, you'd either have to round off the threads or permanently
attach a brake onto the thing (eg via welding). If there are no
threads then it doesn't matter, you can just use it bare.

-Mike

That's not what I wanted to hear Mike.

Okay, weld it regardless of length because in Mass a threaded BBL is a no no. Gotcha.

 

[Fooped]

That's not what I wanted to hear Mike.

Okay, weld it regardless of length because in Mass a threaded BBL is a no no. Gotcha.

IIRC, A threaded barrel is ok as long as the gun is preban (Having been built into a full rifle prior to the ban).

Yes? No?

 

[JonJ]

IIRC, A threaded barrel is ok as long as the gun is preban (Having been built into a full rifle prior to the ban).

Yes? No?

Si.

 

[vicpinto]

Let me clarify the the lower will probably be a post ban.

 

[boston_007]

Let me clarify the the lower will probably be a post ban.

___________________________________________

It's not that complicated so don't make it so. If your lower is post-ban then your upper has to comply with the MA AWB. That means, no bayo lug, flash hider, threaded barrel. If your lower is pre-ban then you have to comply with BATFE regs; 16" barrel, they don't care how it gets to 16" (looking at Debra Lafave does it for me! KIDDING), it just has to be 16".
Read Drgrant and add JonJ and you have it in a nutshell......

 

[vicpinto]

OKay guys. Thanks for the answers.

I guess I will order the 16" BBL only and a comp/muzzle brake from Bushmaster. They do gunsmithing on site so I'll have them permanently attach it for me.

Speaking of comps/muzzle brakes....can anyone recommend a good one?

 

[EasyD]

OKay guys. Thanks for the answers.

I guess I will order the 16" BBL only and a comp/muzzle brake from Bushmaster. They do gunsmithing on site so I'll have them permanently attach it for me.

Speaking of comps/muzzle brakes....can anyone recommend a good one?

What sort of gun are you trying to build? If your going for an M4 looking gun, get the 14.5 with a permanently attached Phantom break. Looks a ton better! Also meets the 16" OAL requirement... Thats the barrel setup Bushy uses for there Post-Ban M4 clone rifles sold in MA/CT/etc, and are readily available without any gunsmithing customness...

--EasyD

 

[Gammon]

If the BBL is 16" then BATFE doesn't care, regardless. The MA
AWB might come into play if this is an MA gun build that will fall
under the MA AWB. (unless your host receiver is preban, then this
most certainly will be a "yes" ). For MA AWB purposes you can't
leave it with a threaded barrel, if that's what you're starting with. In
that case, you'd either have to round off the threads or permanently
attach a brake onto the thing (eg via welding). If there are no
threads then it doesn't matter, you can just use it bare.

-Mike

I don't believe welding or thread removal is is necessary. You can install a threaded muzzle brake, etc. and make it "permanent" by using a pin to lock the assembly in place. The question is sort of moot because the operation will require the services of a machinist or gunsmith; its not DIY anymore.

 

[drgrant]

I don't believe welding or thread removal is is necessary.

If there is no permanently attached brake on a threaded barrel.
then you must remove the threads (or cover them up, eg, with
a sleeve of some sort, like a lot of vendors do on AK rifles, they weld
a nut on instead of grinding the threads off) otherwise you end up
with a threaded barrel on the end product. Exposed + useable
barrel thread = 1 evil parts point.

You can install a threaded muzzle brake, etc. and make it "permanent" by using a pin to lock the assembly in place. The question is sort of moot because the operation will require the services of a machinist or gunsmith; its not DIY anymore.

I should have been more general- weld, blind-pin, whatever... long
as its "permanent."

-Mike

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I'd have it silver soldered rather than drilled and pinned.

 

[vicpinto]

What sort of gun are you trying to build? If your going for an M4 looking gun, get the 14.5 with a permanently attached Phantom break. Looks a ton better! Also meets the 16" OAL requirement... Thats the barrel setup Bushy uses for there Post-Ban M4 clone rifles sold in MA/CT/etc, and are readily available without any gunsmithing customness...

--EasyD

Bushmaster's web site says the Phantom is a flash hider "eliminates all flash" is the description given. The Post Ban M4 listed, part number PCWA3X_14M4IZ, uses an izzy muzzle brake.

I agree the Phantom looks much better but I would think it would count as one of the 2 allowed "evil" features.

 

[Supermoto]

OKay guys. Thanks for the answers.

I guess I will order the 16" BBL only and a comp/muzzle brake from Bushmaster. They do gunsmithing on site so I'll have them permanently attach it for me.

Speaking of comps/muzzle brakes....can anyone recommend a good one?

I have had good luck with my Miculek brake. Keeps the muzzle flat. I was thinking of getting a SJC Titan brake to see how it compares

 

[vicpinto]

Supermoto,

Check out this brake! Scroll down to the entry dated 8/22/07. It also pratically eliminates flash - follow the above link to find another link to the manufacturer web site. You will find a video there that shows you how well this brake also hides the flash.

Also, BATFE says it's not a flash hider - see the BATFE letter on their web site. I think I am going with this one.

 

[Supermoto]

Supermoto,

Check out this brake! Scroll down to the entry dated 8/22/07. It also pratically eliminates flash - follow the above link to find another link to the manufacturer web site. You will find a video there that shows you how well this brake also hides the flash.

Also, BATFE says it's not a flash hider - see the BATFE letter on their web site. I think I am going with this one.

It depends on what you want, a flash hider or a brake or something that is a combination of both, but great at neither.

I don't shoot at night and paper targets don't care about muzzle flash. So I want a brake that makes the rifle as stable as possible when I am shooting and moving. Fast follow up shot is all I care about.

A recent test ranked the DNTC brake didn't score as well as the Miculek, but it comes down to personal preference. I clock my brake slightly to the right, so that the muzzle tracks straighter when I am not in a good stance, when I have a solid stance it will track to the left slight. when the brake was at 12:00 it would track slightly to the right. Since I rare shoot for a good stance, the clocking has help.

 

[EasyD]

Bushmaster's web site says the Phantom is a flash hider "eliminates all flash" is the description given. The Post Ban M4 listed, part number PCWA3X_14M4IZ, uses an izzy muzzle brake.

I agree the Phantom looks much better but I would think it would count as one of the 2 allowed "evil" features.

Umm... Ignore that I called it a Phantom... There are approximately 5 different muzzle devices called "Phantom" somethings...

If you goal is an M4 style rifle, what's wrong with the Izzy break? It looks almost exactly like a Phantom hider...

You should know before you buy one that almost all the 223 breaks are LOUD AS HELL!

--EasyD

 

[Gammon]

___________________________________________

It's not that complicated so don't make it so. If your lower is post-ban then your upper has to comply with the MA AWB. That means, no bayo lug, flash hider, threaded barrel. If your lower is pre-ban then you have to comply with BATFE regs; 16" barrel, they don't care how it gets to 16" (looking at Debra Lafave does it for me! KIDDING), it just has to be 16".
Read Drgrant and add JonJ and you have it in a nutshell......

It is a little more complicated. Having a pre ban lower is not enough. Technically, the gun has to have been assembled prior to the ban.

 

[LoginName]

I don't believe welding or thread removal is is necessary. You can install a threaded muzzle brake, etc. and make it "permanent" by using a pin to lock the assembly in place. The question is sort of moot because the operation will require the services of a machinist or gunsmith; its not DIY anymore.

Sure it is.

Some minor skill with welding/silver soldering and a drill press is all that's needed. Just go slow at it and take care not to drill into the bore .

The only minor annoyance with sliver soldering is that it can't be parkerized afterwards. Fortuantly, a small touch-up with a flat finish paint takes care of that.

One example of an ATF approved method...

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 18 1998 F:FPD:FTB:RAT
3311


Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask
about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms.

A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which
is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature
silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees
Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of
measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the
circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around
the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose.

A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension
permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle.
Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension
which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would
still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic
assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section
921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable
method for permanently attaching a muzzle device.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter40.txt

 

[NFD9]

=LoginName;The only minor annoyance with sliver soldering is that it can't be parkerized afterwards.

What would you use for weld?

I have a 14.5" barrel that had a brake pinned on with a spring pin by ZHA. They told me I didn't need to weld it (not sure if this complies) but, I was thinking of welding it also.
Any thoughts?

 

[LoginName]

What would you use for weld?

I have a 14.5" barrel that had a brake pinned on with a spring pin by ZHA. They told me I didn't need to weld it (not sure if this complies) but, I was thinking of welding it also.
Any thoughts?

That's what I used (spring pin/roll pin/tension pin).

Personally... I'd weld it.

One... it gives me a little more of safety margin should there be any question that by not welding it, it makes it easier to drill the pin out and remove the brake.

Two... even though I 'locked' the pin in pretty good, I had no way of knowing if it would (or wouldn't), loosing up and/or work it's way out from repeated firing.

After carefully locating and drilling the hole, I used a numerical drill bit that was close enough in size so that the pin would 'grip' better. Ground a small taper on one end so it would match-up/mate with the bottom of the hole. Cut the pin to length so that it was slightly below the surface of the brake. Tapped it in with a drift punch then used a nail set to expand the pin and mushroom it out.

Brownells has the solder and paste but it's pretty expensive. Jewelry making supply stores sell it much cheaper (just be certain the solder exceeds the 1,100 degree melt point).
After it cooled, I filed the weld flush.

On a couple of other projects I used an arc welder (courtesy of our department mechanics), and put a quick and easy bead over the pin.

FWIW... the pin and weld method was what Bushmaster used to attach brakes during the 94 ban (I have no idea if they still use that method).