Braintree is a complete disgrace.

[W.E.C]

In boot camp my c.c would try to get in my face as well as all the boots to weed out the perishable produce.

i did more then my share of push-ups and running around around the track with the fake garand over my head,
Because I couldn't keep from grinning or laughing at him , and saying is that all you got?

my dad dealt out tens times worse for years , to toughen me up for this? Disappointed .


Now an email can send someone off the deep end? Wow.

 

[jasons]

Sometimes they get new blood but then those guys encounter resistance. The new blood then goes elsewhere after not wanting to deal with the BS.

This

From some of the stuff I hear you would think that Kim Jong Un etc. runs some of these clubs.

Yep

I know people who have been successful in such ventures, but it often requires a long term commitment to change things.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[TayNinh_66]

BRPC Goldman makes a perfect president. Deny, obfuscate, accuse the complainer of lies. I don't think he will respond to the email screen caps. I do think he went completely overboard calling for a ban on personal attacks on NES forums. NES may as well not exist!

(Zappa, you can't drive for shit)

 

[bostonasphalt2]

It's interesting how the club president needs to send his response to someone else to post on this forum, instead of taking it up with Toe Knee directly, or even registering here and posting it himself. Going through an intermediary proved that his "anyone who wants to speak to me directly can contact me" is pure bullshit lip service. He has already been contacted by someone here, he replied like a cock, and then can't even bring his own message forward himself? Oh AND he has Toe Knee's contact info. What a frigging joke.

 

[oppressed]

Do private ranges/clubs require the blessing of the NRA to operate? Why does the club have to abide by the recommendations of an NRA consultant from New Jersey?

Education please.

 

[M60]

Do private ranges/clubs require the blessing of the NRA to operate? Why does the club have to abide by the recommendations of an NRA consultant from New Jersey?

Education please.

The NRA seems to be about the only place for clubs to get reasonably affordable insurance from what I've been told.

 

[not new guy]

How does he know which stories about the ROs are true and which aren't? It's strange that he can so confidently say that none of the ROs have asked to inspect a mag.

 

[fencer]

Well, it looks like the OP will be looking for a new club... .

Really disappointed in the Presidents, 2nd party reply to NES. He really should have just logged on and replied directly to the forum. He also should have just fessed up and addressed his email reply to the OP. I would have been OK with a response like " Look - we do the best we can. I was having a bad day and your email about the CMP caught me at a bad time and pissed me off. Sorry bout that club member. Let me buy you a beer and we can trade jokes about lawyers and guys named Tony that drive IROC's and shave their backs"

The long winded, reply about how great BRP club is, how tough it is to run the club, his great work for the firearms community and how lawyers are really great people so stop picking on me, was really much ado about nothing, and hardly worth the read.
The only thing I found interesting in his 2nd party rebuttal was his claim that it cost 300k to run the club every year, not including capital improvements. A claim I would not dispute.
Now I am not the one who went to law school, but I do run a small business, and am pretty good at math. BRP's website claims around 5600 members. At $145 per year, that is just over 800k in revenue. They really spend a half million a year on capital improvements? If so, that is pretty impressive.

Mr. Goldman is probably not a bad guy. No doubt, he and the volunteers at BRP have done more for the firearms community in Mass in a year than most of us will do in a lifetime, and Mr. Len S is a credit to that club and this forum. He is the Yoda of Mass firearms facts and laws. But Goldman's assertion that he did not reply to the OP's email, from his personal iPhone ?.... that dog don't hunt. Especially when a simple, unapologetic, explanation would have been fine, even admirable.

 

[n1oty]

I love it when I guy posts a reasonable complaint. At first.

But then he does not know when to quit.

Keeps going on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

Enough already, you made your point. Get over it! The world does not exist to make you happy . . . .

Actually, you are quite premature and the OP is certainly NOT rambling on and on and on. I read this thread thus far as the OP has a complaint about this club's operations and the actions of this club's president. He originally posted about it as a combination warning to others and rant. The president got wind of this discussion here and decided to deliver a response, basically denying the statement of the OP and calling him a liar, via a circuitous avenue. The OP has now posted screen captures of the emails sent by the club's president that clearly support what he has stated. Frankly, I would think that anyone who is a member at that club or contemplating joining that club would find ALL of this information important.

Frankly, I am very surprised that the club president, after a couple of days to calm down, didn't take a softer tone in his response. Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than to push a bad position.

 

[whacko]

How does he know which stories about the ROs are true and which aren't? It's strange that he can so confidently say that none of the ROs have asked to inspect a mag.

Lawyers are Omnipotent beings.

 

[whacko]

Exhibit A. direct copy paste from response: "Firstly, as president, I do not respond to e mails generally. The response received by a member regarding being unable to shoot when a CMP match that was being held and not on the club calendar is a legitimate complaint, had that actually been the case. Either way, the response allegedly received by this individual, and as coming from me, is not accurate."


Exhibit B.

The prosecution rests....​

 

[not new guy]

The prosecution rests....[/INDENT]

Seriously. Rebuttal fail.

Personal attacks should be banned and erased from the Northeast Shooters Forum.

The king has spoken.

 

[todd c]

Well, it looks like the OP will be looking for a new club... .

Really disappointed in the Presidents, 2nd party reply to NES. He really should have just logged on and replied directly to the forum. He also should have just fessed up and addressed his email reply to the OP. I would have been OK with a response like " Look - we do the best we can. I was having a bad day and your email about the CMP caught me at a bad time and pissed me off. Sorry bout that club member. Let me buy you a beer and we can trade jokes about lawyers and guys named Tony that drive IROC's and shave their backs"

The long winded, reply about how great BRP club is, how tough it is to run the club, his great work for the firearms community and how lawyers are really great people so stop picking on me, was really much ado about nothing, and hardly worth the read.
The only thing I found interesting in his 2nd party rebuttal was his claim that it cost 300k to run the club every year, not including capital improvements. A claim I would not dispute.
Now I am not the one who went to law school, but I do run a small business, and am pretty good at math. BRP's website claims around 5600 members. At $145 per year, that is just over 800k in revenue. They really spend a half million a year on capital improvements? If so, that is pretty impressive.

Mr. Goldman is probably not a bad guy. No doubt, he and the volunteers at BRP have done more for the firearms community in Mass in a year than most of us will do in a lifetime, and Mr. Len S is a credit to that club and this forum. He is the Yoda of Mass firearms facts and laws. But Goldman's assertion that he did not reply to the OP's email, from his personal iPhone ?.... that dog don't hunt. Especially when a simple, unapologetic, explanation would have been fine, even admirable.

sounds like the club needs an auditor 500K in improvements per year seems unlikely

 

[not new guy]

I bet a huge chunk of the membership doesn't pay anywhere near $145/yr.

 

[whacko]

sounds like the club needs an auditor 500K in improvements per year seems unlikely

I was thinking the same thing. Wish my club was running on a surplus that high!!! Damn!

 

[jasons]

The NRA seems to be about the only place for clubs to get reasonably affordable insurance from what I've been told.

Not true at all. In fact they are sometimes more expensive.

 

[jasons]

I was thinking the same thing. Wish my club was running on a surplus that high!!! Damn!

There's nothing wrong with building a strong war chest, assuming that's actually where the money is going. Honestly if a club doesn't have at least half a mil in the bank for when the antis come along they're doing something wrong. Litigation is expensive.

With that said, it's also not smart to broadly advertise how much is actually in the war chest. You don't want to become a target either.

 

[Miamivice]

I like that "as president he rarely replies to emails". What a douche. Does he get secret serve protection too??

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Len-2A Training]

Do private ranges/clubs require the blessing of the NRA to operate? Why does the club have to abide by the recommendations of an NRA consultant from New Jersey?

Education please.

The club hired them to evaluate the situation after being informed of bullet strikes on said buildings 660 yds from the firing line. Given their written recommendations, my guess (I was not involved) is that the club felt compelled to implement all the recommendations to show good faith in ensuring such things don't come from the club. Keep in mind there have been more than one such incident over the 17 years I've been a member. The last one the RO on duty was able to state that nobody present would have been the offender.

The NRA seems to be about the only place for clubs to get reasonably affordable insurance from what I've been told.

Strongly believed and wrong! BR&P gets bids for insurance and has been with another company for many years now.

It's interesting how the club president needs to send his response to someone else to post on this forum, instead of taking it up with Toe Knee directly, or even registering here and posting it himself. Going through an intermediary proved that his "anyone who wants to speak to me directly can contact me" is pure bullshit lip service. He has already been contacted by someone here, he replied like a cock, and then can't even bring his own message forward himself? Oh AND he has Toe Knee's contact info. What a frigging joke.

Many people don't do forums and public back and forth pissing contests. Eric isn't hard to find and I suspect that his direct Email address isn't either.

Well, it looks like the OP will be looking for a new club... .

Really disappointed in the Presidents, 2nd party reply to NES. He really should have just logged on and replied directly to the forum. He also should have just fessed up and addressed his email reply to the OP. I would have been OK with a response like " Look - we do the best we can. I was having a bad day and your email about the CMP caught me at a bad time and pissed me off. Sorry bout that club member. Let me buy you a beer and we can trade jokes about lawyers and guys named Tony that drive IROC's and shave their backs"

The long winded, reply about how great BRP club is, how tough it is to run the club, his great work for the firearms community and how lawyers are really great people so stop picking on me, was really much ado about nothing, and hardly worth the read.
The only thing I found interesting in his 2nd party rebuttal was his claim that it cost 300k to run the club every year, not including capital improvements. A claim I would not dispute.
Now I am not the one who went to law school, but I do run a small business, and am pretty good at math. BRP's website claims around 5600 members. At $145 per year, that is just over 800k in revenue. They really spend a half million a year on capital improvements? If so, that is pretty impressive.

Mr. Goldman is probably not a bad guy. No doubt, he and the volunteers at BRP have done more for the firearms community in Mass in a year than most of us will do in a lifetime, and Mr. Len S is a credit to that club and this forum. He is the Yoda of Mass firearms facts and laws. But Goldman's assertion that he did not reply to the OP's email, from his personal iPhone ?.... that dog don't hunt. Especially when a simple, unapologetic, explanation would have been fine, even admirable.

Best solution for the OP would be to go elsewhere where he'll be happier.

I have other shooting friends who absolutely will not do forums for various personal reasons. It's a personal choice.

When this forum started I was a Mod and used to get a lot of "will you do this for me/my company" requests. Eric may think that I'm still a Mod, I don't know. I see him every month at our members meeting but almost never talk with him more than a hello and he's busy tending to business for the meeting when he's there.

Anyone who attends a monthly or annual meeting (~50-60 usually attend monthly meetings and ~200 the annual meeting) will know what the budget is and how money is spent. Yes, the annual operating budget is ~$300K and capital projects will run anywhere from $50K to perhaps $100K in an average year. We are currently looking at replacing the backstop/shooting alleys in the "new" building with quotes in the $300-800K range! We have a lot of money in the bank and can indeed afford to do this things, whereas most clubs run on 10% of our annual budget and rely on volunteer labor almost exclusively. Right now our well collapsed and due to some alleged code issues the town doesn't want to issue permits to put in another well so we'll tie in with municipal water at a huge capital cost that wasn't anticipated.

No member pays $145/year. Dues were $100/year until this year when it was raised to $125. Members with 25 yrs in are grandfathered and don't pay dues and we have a lot of them (no idea how many). New members pay a one-time $75 initiation fee. Unlike many people and most clubs, BR&P does not run "hand to mouth", but banks a huge chunk of money each year. Therefore when there are capital projects that just happen (i.e. the well) we can pay for them, when we plan projects (refurbishing range in new clubhouse, widening the roadway to the outdoor ranges, etc.) we have the money to do them. [In contrast, my first club talked about their unhealthy indoor ventilation system for almost all of the 24 yrs I was a member and still hasn't fixed it adequately (one prominent member had reportable lead levels in his blood) and I've been gone from that club now for 16 years. MF&G was trying to build an indoor range for (I am told) >20 years but money was lacking to do the work (that situation is getting better but still years away).]

sounds like the club needs an auditor 500K in improvements per year seems unlikely

We do have an auditor and the IRS even recently audited the club and found everything in order.

I bet a huge chunk of the membership doesn't pay anywhere near $145/yr.

That allegation was way off, see my response above.

I was thinking the same thing. Wish my club was running on a surplus that high!!! Damn!

A lot of clubs wish that. Good management, good facilities and closeness to Boston certainly helps.

---------------------------

As for Eric's comment about personal attacks, he's right. When we started this forum the rules were that we wouldn't tolerate them and indeed actions were taken against those that violated that rule. There is very little moderation these days and people get away with many more personal attacks. It's not good for the forum and inappropriate. But I'm just a paying member like so many others here, so I just ignore the back biting. Historical fact: The day after this forum was started, Derek Emailed me a request to join and be a Mod . . . his reason for starting this forum was that he was tired of seeing the personal attacks on AR15.com where both of us were participants. After a long phone conversation with Derek, I agreed to join and be a Mod. Eventually policing this forum got to me and being a Mod was just not for me, I'm much happier to just be a participant and my hat is off to the surviving Mods.

 

[kalash]

Either way, the response allegedly received by this individual, and as coming from me, is not accurate.

Proven to be a lie.

The result is what I would argue is the best shooting facility in Massachusetts.

Laughable.

Firstly, as president, I do not respond to e mails generally.
...
I feel compelled to briefly respond. I am more than happy to speak with or meet with anyone interested in the BRPC as well as listen to and address legitimate complaints about the club. While I may not agree with you, I will always listen.

So do you or do you not respond?

Personal attacks should be banned and erased from the Northeast Shooters Forum.

Also laughable.


This club sounds horrible.

 

[Len-2A Training]

In general the contact person for the brp.org website is the webmaster. He decides to deal with the issue or forward to another officer/BOD member. The webmaster is usually prompt getting back to people but sometimes work/personal matters/vacations/etc. get in the way.

 

[whacko]

The club hired them to evaluate the situation after being informed of bullet strikes on said buildings 660 yds from the firing line. Given their written recommendations, my guess (I was not involved) is that the club felt compelled to implement all the recommendations to show good faith in ensuring such things don't come from the club. Keep in mind there have been more than one such incident over the 17 years I've been a member. The last one the RO on duty was able to state that nobody present would have been the offender.




Strongly believed and wrong! BR&P gets bids for insurance and has been with another company for many years now.




Many people don't do forums and public back and forth pissing contests. Eric isn't hard to find and I suspect that his direct Email address isn't either.




Best solution for the OP would be to go elsewhere where he'll be happier.

I have other shooting friends who absolutely will not do forums for various personal reasons. It's a personal choice.

When this forum started I was a Mod and used to get a lot of "will you do this for me/my company" requests. Eric may think that I'm still a Mod, I don't know. I see him every month at our members meeting but almost never talk with him more than a hello and he's busy tending to business for the meeting when he's there.

Anyone who attends a monthly or annual meeting (~50-60 usually attend monthly meetings and ~200 the annual meeting) will know what the budget is and how money is spent. Yes, the annual operating budget is ~$300K and capital projects will run anywhere from $50K to perhaps $100K in an average year. We are currently looking at replacing the backstop/shooting alleys in the "new" building with quotes in the $300-800K range! We have a lot of money in the bank and can indeed afford to do this things, whereas most clubs run on 10% of our annual budget and rely on volunteer labor almost exclusively. Right now our well collapsed and due to some alleged code issues the town doesn't want to issue permits to put in another well so we'll tie in with municipal water at a huge capital cost that wasn't anticipated.

No member pays $145/year. Dues were $100/year until this year when it was raised to $125. Members with 25 yrs in are grandfathered and don't pay dues and we have a lot of them (no idea how many). New members pay a one-time $75 initiation fee. Unlike many people and most clubs, BR&P does not run "hand to mouth", but banks a huge chunk of money each year. Therefore when there are capital projects that just happen (i.e. the well) we can pay for them, when we plan projects (refurbishing range in new clubhouse, widening the roadway to the outdoor ranges, etc.) we have the money to do them. [In contrast, my first club talked about their unhealthy indoor ventilation system for almost all of the 24 yrs I was a member and still hasn't fixed it adequately (one prominent member had reportable lead levels in his blood) and I've been gone from that club now for 16 years. MF&G was trying to build an indoor range for (I am told) >20 years but money was lacking to do the work (that situation is getting better but still years away).]




We do have an auditor and the IRS even recently audited the club and found everything in order.




That allegation was way off, see my response above.




A lot of clubs wish that. Good management, good facilities and closeness to Boston certainly helps.

---------------------------

As for Eric's comment about personal attacks, he's right. When we started this forum the rules were that we wouldn't tolerate them and indeed actions were taken against those that violated that rule. There is very little moderation these days and people get away with many more personal attacks. It's not good for the forum and inappropriate. But I'm just a paying member like so many others here, so I just ignore the back biting. Historical fact: The day after this forum was started, Derek Emailed me a request to join and be a Mod . . . his reason for starting this forum was that he was tired of seeing the personal attacks on AR15.com where both of us were participants. After a long phone conversation with Derek, I agreed to join and be a Mod. Eventually policing this forum got to me and being a Mod was just not for me, I'm much happier to just be a participant and my hat is off to the surviving Mods.

Some leaders are great at managing money and operations (good for you and your club).......but can be terrible at personal relations. Post 101 speaks to that fact.

 

[garandman]

//Many people don't do forums and public back and forth pissing contests. Eric isn't hard to find and I suspect that his direct Email address isn't either.//

This. I take no position on what happened to the OP, other than to regret that it turned out bad for him. But:

1. I I don't know why anyone would want to be President / Commodore / Chairman etc. For free.
2. Eric has always responded to me and always been helpful.
3. I'm reluctant to complain about volunteers because I might get volunteered!

Russ, the guy who runs CMP, is kind of crusty but when he's not trying to get the firing lines going he's a real nice guy and has gone out of his way to help many. He also has a very wry sense of humor.

 

[M1911]

This. I take no position on what happened to the OP, other than to regret that it turned out bad for him. But:

1. I I don't know why anyone would want to be President / Commodore / Chairman etc. For free.
2. Eric has always responded to me and always been helpful.
3. I'm reluctant to complain about volunteers because I might get volunteered!

For about a dozen years, I was in the leadership of a club (never President, however). My reason for being in the leadership was that for a number of years I had been a member, enjoying the facilities, attending some work parties, etc., but not really doing the heavy lifting that kept the club going. That particular club has been in existence since about 1930, and the only reason it is still there is because many people had put in the hard work to keep it running. I figured it was my turn to step up and help out, so that the club will still be around many years later for future generations.

It is a thankless job. It takes long hours. Like any organization involving people, it takes a lot of effort, patience, and politics to convince others that the changes you propose are worthwhile. Whatever decisions you make get second guessed by everyone. And now with the rise of social media, anything you do gets second guessed in public (sometimes accurately, sometimes less so).

But if no one steps up, these organizations die. Few people put in the work and it seems that here on NES there is little empathy for those volunteers. Everyone wants what they want, they want it now, they know what's right, everyone else is a moron, but they don't want to do crap to help make it happen.

I don't know who is more right in this particular urinary olympics. I do have a lot of sympathy for the volunteers who run clubs, particularly when the people bitching aren't the ones who volunteer their time to help out.

garandman, as for item #3, the policy at our club was that if member X said that the club should do Y, and we thought Y was a good idea, we then told Mr. X, "great idea, Mr. X, you're in charge of Y. Come up with a plan and present it at the next board meeting."

 

[garandman]

//garandman, as for item #3, the policy at our club was that if member X said that the club should do Y, and we thought Y was a good idea, we then told Mr. X, "great idea, Mr. X, you're in charge of Y. Come up with a plan and present it at the next board meeting."

Yes, here I am at a BRP meeting.

 

[M1911]

Yes, here I am at a BRP meeting.

Yup. Come up with a "great idea" and you might get voluntold.

 

[kalash]

To me the biggest problem is the President's immature response and the lies that followed. As much as I don't like FUDD rules, if you don't like them then don't join the club, but the attitude bugs me. Then again, I don't have a horse in this race.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Some leaders are great at managing money and operations (good for you and your club).......but can be terrible at personal relations. Post 101 speaks to that fact.

It is hard to be all things to all people. Since I won't bother reading the screen captures and will neither discuss who did what right or wrong, I'll only say that sometimes <collective> we don't always put our best foot forward dealing with a person.

This. I take no position on what happened to the OP, other than to regret that it turned out bad for him. But:

1. I I don't know why anyone would want to be President / Commodore / Chairman etc. For free.
2. Eric has always responded to me and always been helpful.
3. I'm reluctant to complain about volunteers because I might get volunteered!

Russ, the guy who runs CMP, is kind of crusty but when he's not trying to get the firing lines going he's a real nice guy and has gone out of his way to help many. He also has a very wry sense of humor.

BTW, it is Ross (not Russ).

Yes, a very thankless job. I was on the BOD of one club for 14 yrs as their legislative chairman/GOAL club rep and finally quit after another BOD member (who was pulling all the strings running everything from the rear) got belligerent that the MA Gun Law (Ch. 180, 1998) would have NO effect on any current members. He later became president of that club for a long time only recently someone else took over.

 

[bill o]

Yup. Come up with a "great idea" and you might get voluntold.

I had a boss who volunteered me for the good ideas I came up with, even though he knew I was already at 120% utilization. Therefore I just stopped trying to come up with good ideas.

 

[robjax]

My club holds events too. And sometimes the ranges are closed. They are closed a lot less now than they were in the past but since it's a 35 minute ride I check the calendar for the obvious and then if I am still suspicious I e-mail the R&P committee and they usually get back to me pretty quickly. I have never had an issue. We have a pretty good web guy too who does all those updates but since I hate wasting the trip I usually do a little extra follow up.

If the e-mail responses are factual and they seem to be maybe there is some history between the pres and the club member that we are not privy to...if those e-mails are real then that suggests some history or some serious instability on at least one part...lol