Building a Pistol Not on AFR

[dd]

As others have posted, the frame of a 1911 (or other gun) is NOT a firearm under MA law, but IS under Federal law. If you want to build a target pistol based on a 1911 frame (since you cannot buy one commercially from Les Baer of Rock River Arms, for instance) you can purchase a frame or frame/slide assembly from Caspian and take possession in MA via your friendly FFL. He would then make out the Federal 4473 and likely the FA10 as well although it is not required at that point.

Then, you may have the gun built by a bullseye gunsmith here in MA or elsewhere in the U.S. Said gunsmith/FFL would then return the gun to you directly (you must remember that the frame that you sent him is a gun under Federal law and he may legally return it to you after working on it). You now have a complete gun suitable for bullseye competition.

HOWEVER, you CANNOT place this gun in the hands of a MA FFL for any purpose as he cannot return it to you since it is not MA Approved. He would only be able to sell it or ship it out of state.

A question for those more learned than I is whether a second FA10 is required to be filed (first one filed on Frame Only) when the gun is fully assembled?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Dave.

You get all sorts of answers on this one.

My take on it is as follows (real story):

- I own a T/C Contender, bought it back ~1977 with 2 bbls (and frame in a separate box), .357Mag and .44Mag. I recently looked at my old tissue-paper FA-10 form and it was registered as a .44Mag. I have NEVER had the .44Mag barrel on that gun.

- I never re-registered it as a .357Mag!

So, if you would be inclined to re-register a T/C Contender (or their newer model) every time you changed barrels, or if you changed a G22 (.40S&W) to a 9mm barrel, then the answer for you would be "yes".

If I buy something and an FA-10 is filed, I'll personally never file another one on that gun, regardless of any modifications I might make to it.

In my above case, the state KNOWINGLY destroyed all those records, so the gun is now totally "unregistered"! <the horrors> I have had one FFL/PO tell me that I MUST send in an FA-10 on it or "I could be in trouble". I like the man, so I let it pass, but I'll be damned if I'll do the state's job for them. I still have MY COPY of the FA-10 so if anyone tried to make trouble, I have my response and evidence of undue harassment for potential legal action.

That's my Final Answer!

 

[Supermoto]

When you receive the frame, the FA10 is not filed only the 4473

You have a gunsmith build the gun, it is sent back to you and then you file the FA10

 

[dd]

Supermoto -- as I originally posted <our friendly FFL. He would then make out the Federal 4473 and likely the FA10 as well although it is not required at that point.>

So, my later msg presupposed that an FA10 had been filed as most FFLs in MA would require, even tho not required by MA law, when xferring the frame to they buyer.

 

[Scrivener]

A question for those more learned than I is whether a second FA10 is required to be filed (first one filed on Frame Only) when the gun is fully assembled?

It is my position that an FA-10 on a bare frame is a nullity under Mass. law, as the bare frame is incapable of discharging a projectile and is, therefore, NOT a gun. Ask the ziphead who insists upon filling out an FA-10 for a bare 1911 frame how he plans to fill in barrel length (anything from 3 to 6 inch barrels can easily be fitted), caliber (anything from .22 LR to .45 ACP can be fitted) and finish (blue? electroless nickle? chrome (UGH!)? Nitron? Parkerizing? - all can be done).

If, as and when the bare frame becomes a functional firearm, the FA-10 must be filed as a matter of law. Anything filed before that is guesswork by the gutless attempting an unnecessary CYA play.

Not that I have an opinion........

Note that this is NOT the same as a Thompson Contender shipped complete with a barrel, or even some barrels. That is a gun WHEN IT IS RECEIVED and an FA-10 is required.

Timing is everything.....

 

[dd]

I do not disagree with you Scrivener, but merely stated that doing the FA10 on the frame is what FFLs here seem to want as a CYA matter. From my discussions with them, they will not transfer the frame to you without the FA10.

Based on your interpretation, if no FA10 had been done previously, and you are now in possession of a completed gun that you had built by a non-MA gunsmith, how would you make out the FA10??

What would go in the seller space?

 

[Cross-X]

dd,

The situation you describe is a Registration-type transaction on the FA-10 form. Take a look at the instructions on the form for how to accomplish this.

You should complete the info in the Buyer's section.

Darius

 

[Scrivener]

"I do not disagree with you Scrivener, but merely stated that doing the FA10 on the frame is what FFLs here seem to want as a CYA matter. From my discussions with them, they will not transfer the frame to you without the FA10."

Understood. I specifically identified this pointless action as "the gutless attempting an unnecessary CYA play."

 

[Cross-X]

"I do not disagree with you Scrivener, but merely stated that doing the FA10 on the frame is what FFLs here seem to want as a CYA matter. From my discussions with them, they will not transfer the frame to you without the FA10."

Understood. I specifically identified this pointless action as "the gutless attempting an unnecessary CYA play."

Still winning friends and influencing people, aren't you, Scriv?

C-X

 

[Lynne]

Still winning friends and influencing people, aren't you, Scriv?

C-X

He does tend to excel at that.

 

[Scrivener]

Anything worse doing is worth doing to excess!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Anything worse doing is worth doing to excess!

Sic?

 

[Cross-X]

Sic?

Play nice, Len.

Every once in a while even Scrivener makes a scrivener's error.

 

[Scrivener]

Sic?

Actually, it was a poor attempt at a pun.

Cross-X's was better.

 

[dwarven1]

"I do not disagree with you Scrivener, but merely stated that doing the FA10 on the frame is what FFLs here seem to want as a CYA matter. From my discussions with them, they will not transfer the frame to you without the FA10."

Understood. I specifically identified this pointless action as "the gutless attempting an unnecessary CYA play."

Still winning friends and influencing people, aren't you, Scriv?

C-X

Don't know what you're talking about here, C-X - Scrivener is being polite! Besides, he's insulting the FFL who wants to cover his rear, not the poster.

Hey, I understood what he was saying!

 

[JonJ]

Don't know what you're talking about here, C-X - Scrivener is being polite! Besides, he's insulting the FFL who wants to cover his rear, not the poster.

Hey, I understood what he was saying!

And in this state with our illustrious AG, I can see why a dealer would file an FA-10 to cover his butt. Why take a chance a losing your livelihood over a technicality from an over zealous politician trying to justify his existence.

 

[dwarven1]

And in this state with our illustrious AG, I can see why a dealer would file an FA-10 to cover his butt. Why take a chance a losing your livelihood over a technicality from an over zealous politician trying to justify his existence.

One more reason for term limits... like ONE.

 

[Scrivener]

And in this state with our illustrious AG, I can see why a dealer would file an FA-10 to cover his butt. Why take a chance a losing your livelihood over a technicality from an over zealous politician trying to justify his existence.

And yet he's not actually shut down any Mass. dealers, including a certain dealer openly selling non-approved target pistols, or even been involved in the famous Norton arrest - that was a wholly Federal party.

His focus is on OUT-OF-STATE entities beyond his jurisdiction.

 

[Len-2A Training]

And yet he's not actually shut down any Mass. dealers, including a certain dealer openly selling non-approved target pistols, or even been involved in the famous Norton arrest - that was a wholly Federal party.

His focus is on OUT-OF-STATE entities beyond his jurisdiction.

But it has worked, hasn't it?

Damn few will dare ship anything into MA these days.

Let's see:

- He's choked the life out of >50% of the MA dealers,

- He's choked the out of state dealers so they won't sell here,

- He's prevented MA dealers from selling most handguns in MA,

- He makes himself look "tough on crime" to the sheeple who will vote for him as our next Dictator!

I'd say he's been very effective in his "mission"!

 

[gonzoga51]

Can anyone tell me why when you go to the xxxxxxxxxx site to purchase a frame for a build-up they are requiring MA resident's to have their MA FFL's who order the frames to include a signed letter stating that the intended use of the frame is either exclusively for target/LE or MIL use? Is this just CYA or is their a specific MA Law that covers frames or was this part of the recently passed target Bill?

 

[Scrivener]

Can anyone tell me why when you go to the xxxxxxxxxxxxx site to purchase a frame for a build-up they are requiring MA resident's [sic] to have their MA FFL's [sic] who order the frames to include a signed letter stating that the intended use of the frame is either exclusively for target/LE or MIL use? Is this just CYA or is their a specific MA Law that covers frames or was this part of the recently passed target Bill?

Just xxxxxxxxxxxxx playing CYA.

 

[JackO]

- He makes himself look "tough on crime" to the sheeple who will vote for him as our next Dictator!

After yesterday fiasco I hope T.R. is gone forever. Well deserved!

 

[gonzoga51]

thanks for the feedback-LenS I will make note of you edits in any of my posts going forward............TR is gone but the prospect of Coakley/Patrick is not encouraging.............they'll have us filing out forms when we buy straws promising they won't be used to fire spit-balls!