FFL Refuses Transfer Because Address on LTC not matching DL address

[Mountain_Dad]

Hi All,

Seeking some insight and advice. I have a MA LTC-A. Last year I moved to a new house within the same town and I submitted the change of address forms as required. I have verified since that my new address is correct for my LTC on the MERCS portal. Everything is up to par on my end, except the address listed on my LTC card is my old address and now is different from my Driver's License address. This is normal and I know that the LTC card address won't be updated until I renew my LTC later next year.

Last week I purchased a new pistol on GunBroker and had it mailed to a local FFL near me. I went to do the transfer at his store and he outright refused to do it stating that per Federal Law the address on my LTC needs to match the address on my DL. He further stated that it doesn't matter that the address associated with my LTC (which you can verify via MERCS) matches my DL address. I then tried to explain to him that I believe he is wrong and that the Federal form 4473 only requires my DL and that there is no requirement that the address on my LTC card match anything. He still refused, but told me that he is willing to do the transfer if I show him the certified mail receipt from when I did the change of address last year. Unfortunately I don't have that receipt anymore (probably lost in the move). So, his advice was to resubmit the change of address form (a year later), get a new certified mail receipt and show him that one.

So, what do I do? I have since spoken to other FFLs in my area and they have told me that his refusal and his advice to resend a change of address is completely WRONG. I have been told that only my DL is required for the Federal form 4473 and my LTC is verified online through MERCS and there is absolutely no requirement to show any certified mail receipt.

I have since researched the laws and find no requirement to hold onto the certified mail receipt in order to do a FFL transfer.

He also refuses to ship the pistol to another FFL in my area. He will only ship it back to where it came from. So, my plan right now is just to have him ship it back and then have the original dealer ship it to the other FFL.

One last thing, in case it helps for context. The FFL that refuses to do the transfer and seems to be making up his own rules is a small, mom & pop hardware store. The FFL that has given me advice is a much larger shop with a gun store and range that deals with transfers often.

Curious what you all think.

 

[KH56010]

He is wrong, out him. There is no law federal or state that demands you have the ability to prove you can drive in order to purchase a firearm.

 

[CrackPot]

I am a FFL. Your FFL is a complete MORON. Of course, he is allowed to be a moron and have whatever stupid policies he wants.

First, federal law. You must provide two things to your FFL as part of completing a 4473. You must provide proof of identity and proof of residency. Proof of identify is a government issued picture ID with your name and likeness. That is ALL that is required for proof of identify. For proof of residency you must provide ANY government document that contains your name and your current address. This can by your LTC or DL but it can also be your car registration or a tax bill.

State law. You must provide a valid LTC that has your name and likeness and your pin. The address on the LTC will be the address you lived at WHEN THE LTC WAS ISSUED. There is no requirement that it be your current address and in fact they will not issue you an updated LTC with your new address. If the Dealer is paranoid, they can use your LTC# and pin and do a LTC validation to confirm that you have correctly updated your address in the system. This is NOT NECESSARY but they are free to check.

So in a perfect world, you provide your LTC which has your current address on it. It then meets ALL THREE requirements, the two federal requirements and the one MA requirement.

Lots of dealers want your DL also. This is a made up requirement and purely their policy, not the law.

For just a federal transfer, I have accepted a MA issued hoisters license. It has the current address and a picture of the person satisfying all federal requirements. The hoister license is issued every 2 years so sometimes is the one picture ID people have with their current address.


So out your FFL so others can avoid them. Have them transfer the gun to another FFL and never look back.

 

[Mountain_Dad]

Thank you for your insight. I will out him once my pistol is returned.

 

[CATI]

Sounds like they are going to cost you some money sending it back to the original FFL and having them ship to another FFL

 

[Mountain_Dad]

Sounds like they are going to cost you some money sending it back to the original FFL and having them ship to another FFL

Yes, that is likely.

I am also wondering if he is within his rights to enact a store policy that does not align with federal and state requirements. Maybe he is allowed to have his own store policy, but I suspect that legally he is not allowed to make up a requirement that is not within the law. For example, he may not be allowed to require me to show him my receipt for the change of address certified letter because there is nothing in the law that states that. So I suspect he is within his rights to refuse my business, but he is not within his rights to say that he will do the transfer if I do something that I am not legally required to do for a firearm transfer (e.g., re-submit a new change of address form and show him the receipt).

My other concern is that if I jump through his hoops and submit another change of address form via certified mail, almost one year after having actually changed my address, that could generate a red flag that could lead to my LTC being disqualified. The law requires that the change of address be reported within 30 days (which I already did). So my concern is that there may be a chance that this additional report, being much more than 30 days after the change, leads to confusion and potentially a disqualification. I am not willing to take that risk.

 

[CrackPot]

Sounds like they are going to cost you some money sending it back to the original FFL and having them ship to another FFL

you dont do it that way. his FFL just ships to the new FFL. There is no reason to return it first. If they do return it, then they are MORONs and a DICK

 

[Mountain_Dad]

you dont do it that way. his FFL just ships to the new FFL. There is no reason to return it first. If they do return it, then they are MORONs and a DICK

Unfortunately he has already refused to ship it to the new FFL and will only return it.

 

[Picton]

He also refuses to ship the pistol to another FFL in my area. He will only ship it back to where it came from. So, my plan right now is just to have him ship it back and then have the original dealer ship it to the other FFL.

You shouldn't have to do that, but you know that already. Doing it this way is more expensive, but it's also expedient, and I'd be doing it already. One thing it does is get your piece out of the hands of this loon sooner, which is desirable.

you dont do it that way. his FFL just ships to the new FFL. There is no reason to return it first. If they do return it, then they are MORONs and a DICK

If the OP's story is true, this is exactly correct. They need to be outed tout suite. I get that stores make their own policies, and that some of those policies are senseless, but that's not the case here. This FFL is claiming that federal law justifies his actions, not store policy. He is wrong, and needs to suffer.

 

[Marty McFly]

Says you're on the cape. Is this a cape ffl? If so, I've got an idea who you're dealing with

 

[CrackPot]

Unfortunately he has already refused to ship it to the new FFL and will only return it.

So to summarize, he has a policy that has no legal basis but claims it is a legal issue. He refuses to ship your gun to another FFL but insist on returning it to where it came from.

This FFL is one of the worst I have heard of. They deserve to be outed and rot in hell.

 

[CrackPot]

If you were not so bloody far away, I would offer to drive and pick it up from the MORON. Then again, he likely would refuse to let me take it...

 

[Grendizer138]

So to summarize, he has a policy that has no legal basis but claims it is a legal issue. He refuses to ship your gun to another FFL but insist on returning it to where it came from.

This FFL is one of the worst I have heard of. They deserve to be outed and rot in hell.

Don’t ever change.

 

[Mountain_Dad]

Says you're on the cape. Is this a cape ffl? If so, I've got an idea who you're dealing with

Yes.

 

[LuvDog]

Out the FFL since he’s being a total douche and won’t even transfer it to another FFL

 

[Marty McFly]

I know it doesn't matter to the story BUT we all need to know what pistol it is!

 

[Bonesinium]

As bad as making up his own rules about denying you the transfer, refusing to send it to another FFL for no reason whatsoever is asinine. What a dickbag.

 

[namedpipes]

Hi All,

Seeking some insight and advice. I have a MA LTC-A. Last year I moved to a new house within the same town and I submitted the change of address forms as required. I have verified since that my new address is correct for my LTC on the MERCS portal. Everything is up to par on my end, except the address listed on my LTC card is my old address and now is different from my Driver's License address. This is normal and I know that the LTC card address won't be updated until I renew my LTC later next year.

Last week I purchased a new pistol on GunBroker and had it mailed to a local FFL near me. I went to do the transfer at his store and he outright refused to do it stating that per Federal Law the address on my LTC needs to match the address on my DL. He further stated that it doesn't matter that the address associated with my LTC (which you can verify via MERCS) matches my DL address. I then tried to explain to him that I believe he is wrong and that the Federal form 4473 only requires my DL and that there is no requirement that the address on my LTC card match anything. He still refused, but told me that he is willing to do the transfer if I show him the certified mail receipt from when I did the change of address last year. Unfortunately I don't have that receipt anymore (probably lost in the move). So, his advice was to resubmit the change of address form (a year later), get a new certified mail receipt and show him that one.

So, what do I do? I have since spoken to other FFLs in my area and they have told me that his refusal and his advice to resend a change of address is completely WRONG. I have been told that only my DL is required for the Federal form 4473 and my LTC is verified online through MERCS and there is absolutely no requirement to show any certified mail receipt.

I have since researched the laws and find no requirement to hold onto the certified mail receipt in order to do a FFL transfer.

He also refuses to ship the pistol to another FFL in my area. He will only ship it back to where it came from. So, my plan right now is just to have him ship it back and then have the original dealer ship it to the other FFL.

One last thing, in case it helps for context. The FFL that refuses to do the transfer and seems to be making up his own rules is a small, mom & pop hardware store. The FFL that has given me advice is a much larger shop with a gun store and range that deals with transfers often.

Curious what you all think.

You're dealing with a dickhead, not laws. You met your end of the deal, notifying the po and Boston that you moved. You're in compliance with the law.

Tell him if he won't transfer it to a real FFL, you'll tell on him. That's won't accomplish anything, but it'll tick him off REAL good, being talked down to like a churlish kid. Trust me.

I assume you also changed the address on your auto reg? Do they still have the stupid labels you're supposed to write the new address on or were they supposed to send you a new DL?

 

[Snora]

His certified mail receipt logic is insane since that doesn't even prove anything other than you sent a letter. You should ask him if he has a similar gun in stock, tell him to put it on hold and you'll pick it up once your return is processed through gun broker, then ghost him.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

In,..

 

[Ultrarunner]

Crackpot is 100 percent correct here, no further comment needed. Sorry that this dickhead FFLs stupidity is costing you...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Curious what you all think.

Gunshop owners know they are experts on the law and consider themselves authority figures. In most cases, they cannot be educated even when they are wrong.

I don't remember any case where paperwork other than my MA LTC was required to buy a firearm or complete a transfer.

 

[milktree]

I think we should start sending the FFL copies of the actual law and requirements, over and over again.

 

[Joeldiaz]

Thank you for your insight. I will out him once my pistol is returned.

Waiting patiently for this update

 

[Joeldiaz]

Says you're on the cape. Is this a cape ffl? If so, I've got an idea who you're dealing with

Out them?

 

[drgrant]

Yes, that is likely.

I am also wondering if he is within his rights to enact a store policy that does not align with federal and state requirements. Maybe he is allowed to have his own store policy, but I suspect that legally he is not allowed to make up a requirement that is not within the law. For example, he may not be allowed to require me to show him my receipt for the change of address certified letter because there is nothing in the law that states that. So I suspect he is within his rights to refuse my business, but he is not within his rights to say that he will do the transfer if I do something that I am not legally required to do for a firearm transfer (e.g., re-submit a new change of address form and show him the receipt).

My other concern is that if I jump through his hoops and submit another change of address form via certified mail, almost one year after having actually changed my address, that could generate a red flag that could lead to my LTC being disqualified. The law requires that the change of address be reported within 30 days (which I already did). So my concern is that there may be a chance that this additional report, being much more than 30 days after the change, leads to confusion and potentially a disqualification. I am not willing to take that risk.

There is nothing blocking a dealer from making up any bullshit they want that's in excess of the law there are entire box stores that do exactly that. Is it stupid? yes is your dealer that you're trying to work this with a f***ing moron? yes. is it illegal? No.

 

[Penniepup1]

 

[Marty McFly]

Out them?

Not my fight but I'm definitely not outing on my own speculation

 

[Joeldiaz]

Not my fight but I'm definitely not outing on my own speculation

Well even if it’s not the same shop, the fact that you already have an idea of a different shop that’s bad enough to be a potential culprit for this should be enough to warrant outing them as well IMHO. Neither of these two shops should be frequented

 

[michaelpelosillc]

The good old FFL making up rules and trying to pass them off as laws strikes again