Class B vs. Class A Clarifications (UPDATE 9/7/07, LTC Issued!)

[O/U]

Hi folks,

New member here. My appointment to apply for my LTC B is next week. It took me almost 4 months to get an appointment in Salem, MA. I'm a hunter who grew up in Vermont, so the main purpose of my LTC B is so I can purchase and transport firearms and ammunition to and from my hunting grounds where I grew up. I would apply for a full class A LTC, but I've heard it takes an act of congress to get one in Salem.

I have just a few quick questions:

As I understand it, my class B LTC allows me to purchase large capacity long guns and low capacity hand guns. Approved handguns are listed here and I can purchase any of these handguns as long as they are not on the large capacity list here. Is this correct? I see that the S&W M&P is not listed as large capacity and is therefore legal for me to purchase with my lowly class B LTC. Is this also correct?

My second question is what I should bring to my LTC class B application appointment. My firearms instructor said I need to pick up a "packet" at the local PD. I called and the officer with whom I spoke said I just needed to bring passport photos and that there is no packet. Given that my wait has been so long already, I want my ducks in a row. What should I bring, and what can I expect? I'm assuming that I need to bring my handgun safety course certificate, but what else?

I'm so glad I found this forum. I've been lurking all summer and reading the posts here with great interest. Wish me luck next week!

Best,

Tom

 

[C-pher]

If I were you, I would still go for a Class A. I was told by a licensinging officer one time... If you qualify for a Class B, you qualify for a Class A.

Any while your town might be difficult got get a Class A - ALP, why limit yourself to rifles only when you don't have too? Worse would be you get a restricted Class A, but it's still not limiting you to only rifles down the road.

 

[sksguns]

Apply for the class A. Don't do their work for them. Let them decide or rational why you should get a B vs. and A.

 

[O/U]

Any while your town might be difficult got get a Class A - ALP, why limit yourself to rifles only when you don't have too?

As I understand it, Class B LTC allows me to purchase handguns as long as the mags are 10 round capacity or less.

Also, I've read two people commenting that the Salem officer in charge of the application process won't allow you to even apply for the class A because they are so rarely granted in Salem.

This could be hearsay, however. Anyone in Salem with experience on this?

I would love to apply for even a restricted class A, but I just don't think it's going to happen. Any ideas on what I need to bring to my appointment. I keep hearing different things.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Lugnut]

o/u- no one call purchase NEW mags that are over 10 round capacity. However with a class B you can't buy ANY gun that is capability of taking a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. Translation: you selection of available guns will be minimized.

Don't go in with a defeatest attitude. Apply for A.

 

[C-pher]

Well, I would take your photos with you. I would fill out this form; http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/frb_fid_lic_app.pdf and take it with you. Make a copy and keep that as well. Even if they fill it out in person, give him a copy to use.

I would also make sure that you bring your cert from your Firearms Safety Class, as well as a copy of that cert.

Did you read this? http://www.salempd.org/fire_arms_law.htm

I would still go for a Class A. Just because they might not give them out, put down that you're requesting a Class A. NEVER BRING UP TO HIM that you would be happy with a Class B. If they change it, then let them do it. Don't make it easy for them... Why restrict yourself if you don't need to do so?


Also, just know that if the Gun EVER had a magazine made that allowed more than 10 rounds, you can't purchase said gun with your Class B. I'm not sure how many were made that way...but I'm pretty sure it's not many. And from what I can come up with, it's only .22s. I can't think of a large caliber pistol that someone somewhere doesn't have a larger magazine that you're able to use.

 

[C-pher]

Don't go in with a defeatest attitude. Apply for A.

+ 100000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[Mikey]

Like the others have said apply for a Class A and see what happens. Class B is just a thing they put in to confuse people into restricting themselves.

I do not believe they can legally refuse an application for a class “A” just b/c they don't like it. They can restrict it, which then becomes your choice to live with it or fight it with an attorney.


Read some of this if you have not already...
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1784

 

[Fsorrent]

Possibly consulting a lawyer for advice wouldn't be a bad idea either. They will check over your application, help you draft your letter to the chief, and make sure that your application is the best it could be and point out anything illegal that Salem may be requesting from you. Apply for the Class A for All Lawful Purposes "no restrictions". If they aren't going to give it out then at least you can say you did everything you could. The class B is useless, and doesn't make any sense. Dont Apply for it!

 

[TonyDedo]

I would apply for a full class A LTC, but I've heard it takes an act of congress to get one in Salem.

You're probably mistaking a Class A LTC for an unrestricted Class A LTC.

A Class A LTC does two things for you - it allows you to buy large capacity handguns, and it allows you to carry concealed. Most chiefs (in particular in more urban or eastern towns and cities) will issue a class A LTC, but will put a restriction on it, limiting it to 'target' or 'hunting' use. Basically what that does is strip the concealed carry aspect from the license, and limit you to transporting your guns to and from a range/hunting event/gunsmith, etc. You are still able buy large capacity firearms.

Along with the rest of the board, I would highly recommend that you apply for a LTC-A. It will probably come restricted (I believe that Salem issues restricted Class A licenses) but at least you won't have to worry about compliance issues with the large capacity restriction - if it's available in Mass, you'll be able to buy it.

You may think you can get by with a LTC-B, but you're going to run into two problems:

One, there are a TON of firearms out there that, by factory standards, are "low capacity" firearms (accept 10 round or less mags), but there are after market mags designed for the gun that are high capacity. Because these guns are capable of holding more than 10 rounds, thanks to the after market mags, they are now forbidden for LTC-B holders. The 1911 is a perfect example. Factory 1911 mags are 7 round mags. However, there are after market mags that hold 8, 10, and I even saw a 50 round drum mag for a 1911.

Two, having a LTC-B is going to confuse the hell out of anyone you interact with, because NOONE has a LTC-B. You'll get into arguments with shop keepers over what you can and can't buy. And because of all the gray area, you'll always run the risk of being non compliant and not knowing it. In MA, gray area almost always goes against the gun owner, so it's best to avoid it at all costs.

So apply for an LTC-A. If the chief asks why a Class A, tell him you want to be sure you're in compliance with your permit. If worst comes to worst, he might say no and issue you a LTC-B, but I seriously doubt that it'll happen.

On that note, does ANYONE have or know anyone who has a LTC-B???

 

[C-pher]

Hi folks,

New member here. My appointment to apply for my LTC B is next week. It took me almost 4 months to get an appointment in Salem, MA. I'm a hunter who grew up in Vermont, so the main purpose of my LTC B is so I can purchase and transport firearms and ammunition to and from my hunting grounds where I grew up. I would apply for a full class A LTC, but I've heard it takes an act of congress to get one in Salem.

I have just a few quick questions:

As I understand it, my class B LTC allows me to purchase large capacity long guns and low capacity hand guns. Approved handguns are listed here and I can purchase any of these handguns as long as they are not on the large capacity list here. Is this correct? I see that the S&W M&P is not listed as large capacity and is therefore legal for me to purchase with my lowly class B LTC. Is this also correct?

That list you posted that you think is for Class B. Nope. Right off the bat I saw the Berrata 92FS, they make a 15 round magazine for that handgun. That would keep you from buying that with a Class B....as I understand it.

 

[C-pher]

So apply for an LTC-A. If the chief asks why a Class A, tell him you want to be sure you're in compliance with your permit. If worst comes to worst, he might say no and issue you a LTC-B, but I seriously doubt that it'll happen.

Darius and others... If he requests a Class A, and they give him a Class B, is that gounds for an appeal? Because it was issued something other than what was on his app?

 

[Chris]

Here is the real problem with Class B.

The list you link to above is published any time the secretary of Pubic Safety wants to. The content of that list is at the whim of the secretary (although the Gun Control Advisory Board has some input) and there is NO RECOURSE if something is added.

For example, a 1911 is traditionally sold with either a 7 or 8 round magazine. But you can find 15 rounders very easily. The M&P sold in MA is limited to 10 rounds, but the rest of the country can order full capacity. in fact, you could go to NH and buy one over the counter.

So, are those guns Large Capacity or not?

Someday the secretary could suddenly decide that "YES" they are.

The list is published and if you have a Class B and one of the guns, you have now committed an instant felony.

 

[Mikey]

Maybe in the future it will change but as of right now you can have a 1911 on a class B regardless of what the aftermarket does.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9578

 

[drgrant]

You're probably mistaking a Class A LTC for an unrestricted Class A LTC.

Some issuing authorities in MA still try to ram an LTC-B down peoples throats....
because they know an LTC-B cripples people more than an A does.

If he lawyers up/makes a bit of noise he might get some kind of
an LTC-A instead Sometimes you can "justify" it by saying you are
going to be using what MA considers "large capacity handguns" for competition, etc.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Here is the real problem with Class B.

The list you link to above is published any time the secretary of Pubic Safety wants to. The content of that list is at the whim of the secretary (although the Gun Control Advisory Board has some input) and there is NO RECOURSE if something is added.

For example, a 1911 is traditionally sold with either a 7 or 8 round magazine. But you can find 15 rounders very easily. The M&P sold in MA is limited to 10 rounds, but the rest of the country can order full capacity. in fact, you could go to NH and buy one over the counter.

So, are those guns Large Capacity or not?

Someday the secretary could suddenly decide that "YES" they are.

The list is published and if you have a Class B and one of the guns, you have now committed an instant felony.

+1...

A more practical problem is that a lot of gun stores do not really
understand the regs regarding LTC-B and FID holders very
well. Sometimes fake rules are applied and purchasers end up
getting barred from what would be a legitimate purchase because
of dealers not fully understanding the law. I would wager a fair
guess, for instance, that there are many dealers who would
consider ANY 1911 to be "large capacity" because of the whole
"capable of accepting" BS floating around, despite the fact that
it doesn't exist in the law.

-Mike

 

[Junglerott]

O/U I was having the same thoughts as you are and was very nervous about applying for a class A fearing I would be totally turned down. I was told it is extremely difficult to get a class A ALP vut after reading this forum and talking to my safety course instructor I applied anyway. I listed All Lawfull Purposes as a reason for needing the license and was not asked one time during the interview to giva another reason. Even if Salem is tough, apply for it anyway and worse case you end up with a Class A Target/Hunting. I am not sure why, but for some reason we are led to belive it is next to impossible to get a Class A ALP....This is not the case.

 

[O/U]

Hi folks,

I'm so glad I posted. Thank you all for the excellent advice. I think applying for the LTC-A makes perfect sense, so you've convinced me to do so. The more I read, the more annoyed I get at these laws that seem designed to confuse people who want to abide by the law.

My appointment is next Wed., so I have a limited time frame in which to get my application materials together now that I'm applying for a Class A. I'm assuming I need to provide some extra items with my application. Do I need to write a letter, get references to write letters etc., jump through additional hoops for this application?

Thanks again,

Tom

 

[szaino]

Go to the GOAL website for info. Here is the link that explains the differences between A and B.

http://www.goal.org/misc/faq/aandbdifferences.pdf

The differences are more significant than you think. I too would highly recommnd that you apply for an A. - Oh you posted that you would apply for an A while I was typing this reply.

 

[dwarven1]

Any ideas on what I need to bring to my appointment.

A lawyer - I recommend you send a PM to either Cross-X or Scrivener here on this forum; they're both lawyers who specialize in firearms law.

Also, just know that if the Gun EVER had a magazine made that allowed more than 10 rounds, you can't purchase said gun with your Class B.

NO!

The 1911, the 10/22, just to mention two, are NOT on this list because they were NEVER supplied with magazines over 10 rounds from the factory.

One, there are a TON of firearms out there that, by factory standards, are "low capacity" firearms (accept 10 round or less mags), but there are after market mags designed for the gun that are high capacity. Because these guns are capable of holding more than 10 rounds, thanks to the after market mags, they are now forbidden for LTC-B holders. The 1911 is a perfect example. Factory 1911 mags are 7 round mags. However, there are after market mags that hold 8, 10, and I even saw a 50 round drum mag for a 1911.

No... see above. Factory mags are the key.

 

[C-pher]

My appointment is next Wed., so I have a limited time frame in which to get my application materials together now that I'm applying for a Class A. I'm assuming I need to provide some extra items with my application. Do I need to write a letter, get references to write letters etc., jump through additional hoops for this application?

Thanks again,

Tom

That is going to depend on what your town wants.

Where I live, I just needed the check for 100 bucks, and the completed application. No pictures as it's all electronic now. But maybe your town isn't online yet with the system. That would mean that they are still using the old style licenses.

Anyway, the first time, I just needed the completed app, the MA Cert, and my 100 dollar check. As North takes their own pictures.

Other towns ask for quite a lot of stuff. So, if I were you, I would contact the licensing officer and ask him what you're going to need.

At the minimum I would these items together:

-The app that I posted earlier in this thread alont with a copy.
-The pictures
-The MA Cert along with a copy
-and a 100 dollar check.

 

[C-pher]

The 1911, the 10/22, just to mention two, are NOT on this list because they were NEVER supplied with magazines over 10 rounds from the factory.

Not to be picky, but I don't think that the 10/22 is a pistol.

But thank you for the clarification... I saw that later in the thead, after I posted.

 

[Mikey]

+1 dwarven1 is correct..

(Can Scrivener still get messages?)

 

[dwarven1]

Not to be picky, but I don't think that the 10/22 is a pistol.

But thank you for the clarification... I saw that later in the thead, after I posted.

No, the 10/22 is a rifle that you can purchase with an FID because it is a LOW CAPACITY rifle. High capacity rifles, like the AR-15 and the M1 carbine, require an LTC-B, and the defining factor is the factory mag capacity of 30 (or 15 and 30 for the M1). My point was that although you can get 20, 25, 30, 50 and 100 round magazines for the 10/22 in FREE states, it's still considered a low capacity rifle because RUGER never offered a mag of over 10 rounds for it.

And you're welcome. Consider yourself "scrivened".

 

[O/U]

Hey guys,

My licensing officer is out of town till the day of my appointment, so I've been unable to contact him and ask him directly what I need to bring.

I called the PD and they said I only need to bring passport photos (even though I believe Salem is on the electronic system). Still, I've heard from other sources that I need to bring more.

I'm going to bring a few bills as proof of residence with me along with my completed application. My big question right now is whether I'm going to need a birth certificate. Have any of you read anything about having to provide a birth certificate. If I need one, I'm screwed as it takes 7 to 10 business days to get one from Vermont.

 

[Big_Red]

Hey guys,

My big question right now is whether I'm going to need a birth certificate.

Since I am a naturalized citizen, I had to provide either a passport or the naturalization certificate. Went with the passport.

Also, in my town I did not have to fill out any paper applications. It was all done electronically, including the photos. The officer even filled in ALL LAWFUL PURPOSES without asking me. How cool is that

 

[dwarven1]

I'm going to bring a few bills as proof of residence with me along with my completed application. My big question right now is whether I'm going to need a birth certificate. Have any of you read anything about having to provide a birth certificate. If I need one, I'm screwed as it takes 7 to 10 business days to get one from Vermont.

WHAT??? For G-d's sake, why are you bringing all that stuff? Bring your MA driver's license for proof of residence and leave all that home. Are you planning on getting on your knees, too?

O/U, PLEASE... if you're that nervous about this, do what I suggested in my earlier post - consult a good firearms LAWYER. Think of him as a pit bull in a three-piece suit. (and no, I don't get a commission from the lawyers... although I should; I've referred folks to Darius before. www.massgunlaw.com)

 

[C-pher]

I'm going to agree with Ross on this one. Call Darius if you are that worried.

Honestly, you shouldn't need more that what I listed above. If you do, I would think that SOMEONE else in the department would know. I can't believe that only ONE person knows what the guy/gal needs.

 

[O/U]

WHAT??? For G-d's sake, why are you bringing all that stuff? Bring your MA driver's license for proof of residence and leave all that home. Are you planning on getting on your knees, too?

Only if I have to .

Seriously though, I'm just trying to cover my bases. It took me almost 4 months just to get the appointment. Grouse season is rapidly approaching. I don't want to miss another hunting season because I didn't bring document #3492/b.2 to my appointment.

So is the consensus that I do not need to bring a birth certificate?

Please be patient with me. I'm a Vermonter who grew up on a small farm with firearms as part of my daily life, not heavily restricted objects of evil. These laws are very confusing to me, and I just want to have my bases covered when I sit down for my long-awaited appointment next week.

Tom

 

[TonyDedo]

Only if I have to .

Seriously though, I'm just trying to cover my bases. It took me almost 4 months just to get the appointment. Grouse season is rapidly approaching. I don't want to miss another hunting season because I didn't bring document #3492/b.2 to my appointment.

So is the consensus that I do not need to bring a birth certificate?

Please be patient with me. I'm a Vermonter who grew up on a small farm with firearms as part of my daily life, not heavily restricted objects of evil. These laws are very confusing to me, and I just want to have my bases covered when I sit down for my long-awaited appointment next week.

Tom

First, I would agree that talking to a lawyer would be the best first step.

If you choose not to, I would go to that interview with all the documentation you can get your hands on - drivers license, birth certificate, passport, SS card, utility bills, reference letters from members of the community, firearms course completion certificates, etc, etc. Doesn't mean you need to drop it all on the chief's desk and begin begging as soon as you get in the door. However, delays can be very time consuming, so I think it's best to be over prepared.