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CMP Releases 2019 Rulebooks....
- Thread starter dw617
- Start date
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
I have some 40 grain you can try. ![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Parts came in while I was away. If not today. I’ll finish my rules compliant abomination next weekend.
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Looks like the Seekins lightweight free float fore end is ~1 oz lighter than the delta ring setup. New front sight a hair lighter than the old one. I may get away with the A2 lower, otherwise I'll use the carbine skeleton stock.
To be continued...
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Looks like the Seekins lightweight free float fore end is ~1 oz lighter than the delta ring setup. New front sight a hair lighter than the old one. I may get away with the A2 lower, otherwise I'll use the carbine skeleton stock.
To be continued...
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So the free float tube isn't compatible with the iron front sight that I have. Something will have to be trimmed to get the sight all the way back against the stop and leave some room for barrel whip. Ugh... stupid CMP. Guess I'll have to grind or find an alternate.
This is why i gave a FU to cmp over the rules. I have my M1 garand for as issued JCG and my Vintage rifles. MM? Well since im only shooting pembroke you guys can give me crap for my 1/2lb over weight M1a and A2
Won't give you any crap. My M1A will probably be a little over. I'm going to swap the NM sight on the Bula for a standard sight and see if they will accept it at Vermont. May not shoot it assuming I have the new rules compliant AR that should be VERY accurate once free floated, assuming my eyes are having a decent day.
Looks like the YHM folding front sight will work. I'll glue it open. I think they intend to allow sights on the float tube so folding gas block type should be OK. Same ears and front post as standard. I started down this rabbit hole so may as well finish.
So the rules don't exactly mirror the CMP clarification letter that is posted on their website:
It was brought to our attention that commonly available and inexpensive AR type rifles
are sold with attributes (float tubes, alternate Sights, etc.) which would prevent them from
competing due to the accurizing ban. Since the 2019 reversion to the previous weight limit of
7.5 lbs (AR) will eliminate the possibility of competing with a Service Rifle therefore eliminating
A2 with 20” barrels. This will promote a competition with pencil barrels and m4 clones which is
in line with the original intent and spirit of the competition.
In the interest if inclusivity and simplicity of enforcement, the 2019 rules relax any
additional restrictions regarding accurizing beyond the clearly defined position on optics and
overall weight. 2019 revisions will also ensure that other rifles, such as the M1A which is often
sold with an “NM” front sight, will be legal for competition in their commonly available
configuration.
So if I bring an A2 that somehow makes weight will that be assumed to have been 'eliminated' from competition and therefore UMM? I'm mounting an alternate front sight for weight and clearance issues- per this letter it will be good to go, LOL right? Or are only pencil barrels and M4 clones legal? Doesn't say THAT in the rules. I'll have a free float AR with alternate front sight and alternate carbine butt stock that is fixed and Mass legal. Barrel is standard weight Criterion A2, not match rifle weight but not pencil either. It will be fun to check this in at Vermont next fall. I'll have the rules and the oxymoronic 'clarification' letter and if I DQ for regular MM I'll ask the tech to show me on the doll I mean show me in the rules where are the violations.
So the Bula 'NM' front sight is now legal, if the Bula can make weight. Maybe get a laminated M1A stock and cut out the center of the butt stock to get it to 9.0 lbs. LOL that will piss off someone if it passes.
It was brought to our attention that commonly available and inexpensive AR type rifles
are sold with attributes (float tubes, alternate Sights, etc.) which would prevent them from
competing due to the accurizing ban. Since the 2019 reversion to the previous weight limit of
7.5 lbs (AR) will eliminate the possibility of competing with a Service Rifle therefore eliminating
A2 with 20” barrels. This will promote a competition with pencil barrels and m4 clones which is
in line with the original intent and spirit of the competition.
In the interest if inclusivity and simplicity of enforcement, the 2019 rules relax any
additional restrictions regarding accurizing beyond the clearly defined position on optics and
overall weight. 2019 revisions will also ensure that other rifles, such as the M1A which is often
sold with an “NM” front sight, will be legal for competition in their commonly available
configuration.
So if I bring an A2 that somehow makes weight will that be assumed to have been 'eliminated' from competition and therefore UMM? I'm mounting an alternate front sight for weight and clearance issues- per this letter it will be good to go, LOL right? Or are only pencil barrels and M4 clones legal? Doesn't say THAT in the rules. I'll have a free float AR with alternate front sight and alternate carbine butt stock that is fixed and Mass legal. Barrel is standard weight Criterion A2, not match rifle weight but not pencil either. It will be fun to check this in at Vermont next fall. I'll have the rules and the oxymoronic 'clarification' letter and if I DQ for regular MM I'll ask the tech to show me on the doll I mean show me in the rules where are the violations.
So the Bula 'NM' front sight is now legal, if the Bula can make weight. Maybe get a laminated M1A stock and cut out the center of the butt stock to get it to 9.0 lbs. LOL that will piss off someone if it passes.
Not a match upper? Typical WOA upper has a heavy match barrel- definitely 'unlimited' class. Regardless, save your old parts. I think by now I'll have enough parts choices to comply with almost anything they cook up for rules. If they go full out A4 or pencil barrel, I will bring my wife's pink carbine. I may bring that to Pembroke anyway.
I stopped trying to 'get' the CMP rules a few weeks ago and mostly ridicule them and try to see how to push them yet remain 'legal'. No, an A2 that's not set up for high power and the like should be OK, but apparently it's not. CMP should just say they want more mall ninjas and be done with it.
Same reason why dw617s A1 clone would be DQ for cmp service rifle. ? All very confusing
Like i said before maybe the cmp is trying to get MM to actually be modern or some what ad the M4 pushes 15 years old now.
So basically it sounds like they dont want 20" barrels in the AR MM ?
Ok so why no M16a1 A2/A4 M4 classes?
Im stumped.
That would work, though the pencil barrel and delta ring attached HG's would require very consistent sling pressure in order to be accurate.
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My abomination is done.
Had to change front sight to clear new free float HG, otherwise made from the old A2 plus stuff from the parts pile. Using the same old 20" A2 standard weight barrel that CMP insinuated was a problem, but F 'em because it's now 7.3 lbs and does not include anything they specifically prohibit. We'll see how it shoots, eventually.
Dear CMP-
Thank you for changing the MM rules (again) so that the competition can be more fair than it was last year. Once I rebuilt my MM rifle to be 2019 compliant, I can see how we will all be shooting the same POS platform with barn door level accuracy:
Iron sights, 100 yards, no spotting scope, snowing, and crappy light conditions. Single shot below and right of group was my first shot on target. I got the elevation right for the remaining shots but mistakenly went the opposite direction for windage. That's what happens when it's dark and as a semi-geezer you forget your reading glasses and spotting scope. Pretty happy with the group and I think this build is more accurate than its previous rendition with a scope and non free float upper.
Overall this build illustrates how the new rules didn't eliminate equipment advantages- they just shift the advantage in a different direction. Same Criterion A2 20" barrel is more accurate once free floated. Comes in at 7.3 lbs in this configuration. Regarding the skeleton stock- yeah, I could use a lightweight BCG and somewhat stripped A2 or an A1 butt stock and still make weight. I want to roll with this one as I saw many non-standard butt stocks at Vermont. If they want to DQ me from MM and put this rifle in UMM, they'll have to DQ all the others that do not have an exact copy of an A2/A1 or M4 butt stock. The alternative front sight is right in line with the new rules that allow such modifications. Same for the free float hand guard.
That bigger snowflake in the target pic at first looked like a perfect Star of David until it started to melt- wish I was quicker with the camera.
Thank you for changing the MM rules (again) so that the competition can be more fair than it was last year. Once I rebuilt my MM rifle to be 2019 compliant, I can see how we will all be shooting the same POS platform with barn door level accuracy:
Iron sights, 100 yards, no spotting scope, snowing, and crappy light conditions. Single shot below and right of group was my first shot on target. I got the elevation right for the remaining shots but mistakenly went the opposite direction for windage. That's what happens when it's dark and as a semi-geezer you forget your reading glasses and spotting scope. Pretty happy with the group and I think this build is more accurate than its previous rendition with a scope and non free float upper.
Overall this build illustrates how the new rules didn't eliminate equipment advantages- they just shift the advantage in a different direction. Same Criterion A2 20" barrel is more accurate once free floated. Comes in at 7.3 lbs in this configuration. Regarding the skeleton stock- yeah, I could use a lightweight BCG and somewhat stripped A2 or an A1 butt stock and still make weight. I want to roll with this one as I saw many non-standard butt stocks at Vermont. If they want to DQ me from MM and put this rifle in UMM, they'll have to DQ all the others that do not have an exact copy of an A2/A1 or M4 butt stock. The alternative front sight is right in line with the new rules that allow such modifications. Same for the free float hand guard.
That bigger snowflake in the target pic at first looked like a perfect Star of David until it started to melt- wish I was quicker with the camera.
It’s finny I feel like cmp rules committee believed no one would make weight with a free float set up.Dear CMP-
Thank you for changing the MM rules (again) so that the competition can be more fair than it was last year. Once I rebuilt my MM rifle to be 2019 compliant, I can see how we will all be shooting the same POS platform with barn door level accuracy:
Iron sights, 100 yards, no spotting scope, snowing, and crappy light conditions. Single shot below and right of group was my first shot on target. I got the elevation right for the remaining shots but mistakenly went the opposite direction for windage. That's what happens when it's dark and as a semi-geezer you forget your reading glasses and spotting scope. Pretty happy with the group and I think this build is more accurate than its previous rendition with a scope and non free float upper.
Overall this build illustrates how the new rules didn't eliminate equipment advantages- they just shift the advantage in a different direction. Same Criterion A2 20" barrel is more accurate once free floated. Comes in at 7.3 lbs in this configuration. Regarding the skeleton stock- yeah, I could use a lightweight BCG and somewhat stripped A2 or an A1 butt stock and still make weight. I want to roll with this one as I saw many non-standard butt stocks at Vermont. If they want to DQ me from MM and put this rifle in UMM, they'll have to DQ all the others that do not have an exact copy of an A2/A1 or M4 butt stock. The alternative front sight is right in line with the new rules that allow such modifications. Same for the free float hand guard.
That bigger snowflake in the target pic at first looked like a perfect Star of David until it started to melt- wish I was quicker with the camera.
Now if they wanted to be challenging for MM they should have said 7.5lbs
No free float
I have been to lazy to strip and weigh my AR parts to try and build the lightest MM 1 can.
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I don't know what they were thinking, but they clearly didn't think this one through. Essentially they have created a new configuration that is potentially more dominant than whatever they thought was making the old rules unfair. IMHO, free float A2 weight match barrel + iron sights > non free float same barrel + scope. If I can pop out a group like above in shitty light with no spotting scope, somebody good is going to wear out the X-ring.
The only thing they could bounce me over would be the butt stock if they pulled that 'spirit of the competition' bullcrap. IMO they have already destroyed the spirit of the competition by allowing free floats. I could replace the butt stock with a M4 stock and maybe swap in a lightweight bolt carrier if necessary. I still have the heavy ass carry handle knobs which are huge and made of steel. Swapping those for nuts will shed some weight. For now I'll just enjoy my 'spite' build.
Since there happens to be a lot of CMP pros in this thread, let me ask a dumb question:
What exactly is the difference between EIC matches and CMP games matches. I know there are different classes for the types of rifles, but what is the broader difference? Are the courses of fire different? Are EIC the only ones you can earn leg points? Are the Games matches only for fun/bragging rights? The upcoming NE games in Vermont have both available for registration.
If I am reading the rules right, an A2 clone that is overweight for MM A class could qualify as an EIC "M16", being a commerical equivalent.
I ask this because my 7lb 10oz Colt Sporter Target, which is about as close to an M16A2 as I can get without enlisting, is too heavy for MM A class.
What exactly is the difference between EIC matches and CMP games matches. I know there are different classes for the types of rifles, but what is the broader difference? Are the courses of fire different? Are EIC the only ones you can earn leg points? Are the Games matches only for fun/bragging rights? The upcoming NE games in Vermont have both available for registration.
If I am reading the rules right, an A2 clone that is overweight for MM A class could qualify as an EIC "M16", being a commerical equivalent.
I ask this because my 7lb 10oz Colt Sporter Target, which is about as close to an M16A2 as I can get without enlisting, is too heavy for MM A class.
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CMP SERVICE RIFLE/EIC for all accounts is NRA high power/service rifle. With some rules not being consistent between the 2.
Games are just that. 100-200 yard. With the different classes.
Your sporter A2 would pass EIC/NRA high power service rifle no problem.
You A2 is over weight for CMP games MM so you would be bumped into Unlimitted MM.
Fun stuff
I recommend printing out all 3 rule books.
Go through them and see the differences.
Then see what rifles you have that might pass.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not planning to attend any of the big matches anytime soon, so strict compliance isn't really a problem for me at this time. I'm sure I could shave off the extra weight on my rifle if I should that be necessary in the future.
I think yours would have the heavy barrel (H-bar), which generally puts you in either Unlimited Modern Military for 'Games' or it can be used in the EIC match. Is the twist rate 1:7? That would be great for heavier projectiles- at least 69 grain, 77 grain, and even 80's if single loading. Should be a good rifle for EIC.
Games are all at 200 yards. Typically slow prone 5 sighters + 10 for score, rapid prone 10 shots, slow off-hand (standing) 10 shots.
EIC has no sighters. Start at 200 yards 10 shots offhand, then 10 shots rapid sitting. Move to 300 yards for prone rapid, 10 shots. Last round is 20 shots slow prone at 600 yards. You have to know your come-ups for the various distances and you have to know how to adjust for varying crosswinds. You'll want some practice at 600 with your rifle and chosen ammo before showing up at a match.
I highly recommend coming to Pembroke for the CMP Games matches. You can get some coaching for position shooting and learn the ropes for Games. Somewhat regularly folks will show up with their 'out of competition' AR's and shoot them anyway. Still get bragging rights, just no medals. The club M1 Garands are tack drivers and for ~$35 you can buy ammo for them and shoot both a M1 and your AR.
Vermont is pretty awesome- I highly recommend going.
It's an A2 profile barrel, as far as I can tell. Not as thick as the colt H-Bars, but not a pencil gov't profile like the older SP's or the A1. 1:7 twist. I was using a cheap kitchen scale to weigh it, so maybe it's not accurate. Sources online put its weight at exactly 7.5 lbs.
Planning to get out to Pembroke to do some 200 yard shooting this year, so far I've only done the reduced 100 yard targets, but I've been making steady improvement. Still a long way to go. Vermont would be fun, but I doubt I'll be getting much 600 yard range time to practice dealing with the wind. I'm not aware of anyplace near the South Shore you can do that kind of shooting.
Reading Rifle runs NRA Highpower all summer. 200-300-600 80 shot match. They will let you shoot out if comp if your rifle happens to not fall under rules of match.
A warning though: If you can’t keep your shots on paper they will pull you from the line. Don’t fret though the paper is big like 76”
I’m going to try and get out there a few times this year. I only got out 2 times in 3 years. Just to busy and my life/shooting schedule always conflict!
Thanks. That'll give me something to work towards. Do you know if these matches are open to non-members?
