Co-witness No-witness. Are iron sights needed?

[whatluck]

conventional sights don't "point" the same as a dot sight. when you run a dot the problem you need to train out is finding the dot. you shoot with both eyes open and 'lower' the dot onto the target. you need to train target transitions without reverting to the old habit of looking at your front sight post with one eye. you target transition with both eyes open, sweeping your field of view and settling the dot on the target without closing one eye and without looking at the front sight. its hard to do perfectly every time. you make mistakes, catch yourself looking for the dot or closing one eye, or pulling your focus closer to your front sight.

the difference in height between the dot and the front sight is really irrelevant because they require two completely different techniques. Transitioning from one to the other is easy enough.

 

[whatluck]

You can see how particular slide/rds/sights combo looks from shooter's POV, it helps making decisions if you thinking about getting the same setup.

See the first picture posted by mcb above? While his RDS choice is up for debate, picture perfectly demonstrates how that combo cowitnesses and how much of the lens is obscured.

You don't see the front sight when you use a dot correctly. Your eyes are downrange on the fight, the front sight kind of double visions out of your sight picture. You would need a 2x4 front sight for it to be a problem.

 

[GlockBy]

Besides the whole USA thing, is it a significantly better dot than say this one -

https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-3moa-shake-awake-red-dot-pistol-sight-hs407a.html

They will start shipping in April, and it would be up to you to decide on the "significantly better" part.

What is your platform, is it optic ready, or need to cut? If it is not a range toy only, I would step up to the enclosed Holosuns as a baseline.

 

[Point&Shoot]

Well this G34 is just going to be a range gun with an occasional round or two of IDPA. I think I’ll just leave the factory iron sights as is and if the G34 and 507c optic works out I’ll put optics on one of my carry firearms. It looks like co-witnessed set ups look a little muddy and if it’s primarily in case your battery dies I’ll just make sure I have an extra around. I’m sure I’ll recognize the battery dying long before it fizzles out completely. It’ll be on me if it does. 50,000 hours of battery life sure sounds like a lot to me especially with shake to awaken feature. My primary goal is to make up for my eyes not being what they use to be. Thanks for the help gentlemen

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Happened to me last year. During one of the stages the battery tray decides to escape from the optic and yeeted itself.

2023 NER Staff Shoot. Monsoon weather. Raining so hard it wasn't even funny. Go to shoot the 3rd. stage and Romeo1 Pro stops working after the first array. My P226 has proper height sights for co-witness and I shoot the remainder of the stage using irons. I hit the targets and made the shots. Was so happy I had taken the time to get the proper height co-witness sights from Sig and install them.

Competition guns and EDC, have the correct co-witness sights. Range gun, up to you.

 

[kalash]

Competition guns and EDC, have the correct co-witness sights. Range gun, up to you.

Couldn't agree more! Luckily when it happened to me it was just a local match because a) I didn't have backup irons at all, and b) the optic was occluded so I had to rely purely on my index - it wasn't pretty.

 

[GlockBy]

You don't see the front sight when you use a dot correctly. Your eyes are downrange on the fight, the front sight kind of double visions out of your sight picture. You would need a 2x4 front sight for it to be a problem.

I am aware of where the focus should be and how to use a dot correctly.

My point is about maximizing the available viewing window, while still being able to make precision shots with irons if you have to. If you are off center just right (bad grip on a draw, weird position or barricade, etc.) and your cowitness is too high, your rear sight can block your view of the dot while shot would actually have been good to go. Does that make sense or illustration needed?

 

[dingbat]

No need for irons, if Red Dot fails - you just Point&Shoot!

Don’t I need that hunk of aluminum angle strapped to the side of my pistol to do that though?

 

[GlockBy]

Don’t I need that hunk of aluminum angle strapped to the side of my pistol to do that though?

I was making a joke about OP's username being an answer to his question, but yours went right over my head. Please explain (with pictures).

 

[dingbat]

I was making a joke about OP's username being an answer to his question, but yours went right over my head. Please explain (with pictures).

Damn, figured you were referencing the guy who showed up here talking about point shooting years back. He or someone in the thread was hocking his website and a gizmo that attached to the side of the handgun to hold the index finger in proper alignment.
It was basically a scrap of aluminum angle that stuck out to the side…

Found the old thread, won’t link to it but this screenshot sums it up nicely.

 

[GlockBy]

conventional sights don't "point" the same as a dot sight. when you run a dot the problem you need to train out is finding the dot. you shoot with both eyes open and 'lower' the dot onto the target. you need to train target transitions without reverting to the old habit of looking at your front sight post with one eye. you target transition with both eyes open, sweeping your field of view and settling the dot on the target without closing one eye and without looking at the front sight. its hard to do perfectly every time. you make mistakes, catch yourself looking for the dot or closing one eye, or pulling your focus closer to your front sight.

the difference in height between the dot and the front sight is really irrelevant because they require two completely different techniques. Transitioning from one to the other is easy enough.

You really should be using both eyes open for irons most of the time as well.

Do you see the dot during your transitions, when you mention sweeping your field of view?

 

[FireMedic102]

Nice setup, but can you take a pic from shooters POV to show how the sights cowitness on it? Thanks!

Here you go. If I line up perfectly it’s not quite showing the dot on the camera but I think this gives you the idea. I have a good friend who’s a Glock armorer he set it up and helped me zero everything. She’s pretty dialed in.

 

[MarkT]

Yea they are necessary, no the red dot is not.

you must be young.

 

[LakeTrout]

you must be young.

Just grumpy

 

[GlockBy]

Damn, figured you were referencing the guy who showed up here talking about point shooting years back. He or someone in the thread was hocking his website and a gizmo that attached to the side of the handgun to hold the index finger in proper alignment.
It was basically a scrap of aluminum angle that stuck out to the side…

Found the old thread, won’t link to it but this screenshot sums it up nicely.

View attachment 952879

That guy must have made a lasting impression!

Took a quick a look, his patent on that shelf has expired! Opportunity is calling!

 

[GlockBy]

Here you go. If I line up perfectly it’s not quite showing the dot on the camera but I think this gives you the idea. I have a good friend who’s a Glock armorer he set it up and helped me zero everything. She’s pretty dialed in. View attachment 952894

Thank you! Sights lined up would be better, dot is not needed to see this. But yes, gives me a good enough idea!

P.s.: Where is the dot when you line up the sights? Do you see it still? What distance is red dot zeroed at? Do POIs somewhat match if you use irons at that distance?

 

[Masswhole]

Both my direct mount dots are co-witness with stock height irons.

Thank you! Sights lined up would be better, dot is not needed to see this. But yes, gives me a good enough idea!

P.s.: Where is the dot when you line up the sights? Do you see it still? What distance is red dot zeroed at? Do POIs somewhat match if you use irons at that distance?

My dots are absolute cowitness with the irons. The dot isn’t zeroed at a specific distance, it’s the same as irons re poa/poi.
If the dots on target, even if not centered in window, it will hit.

 

[Broc Tuah]

Co-witness No-witness. Are iron sights needed?​

Why wouldn't they be needed unless:
1. You only use the gun for fun / competition.
2. You trust something made in China that can and will eventually fail.

 

[Mark from ?]

Why wouldn't they be needed unless:
1. You only use the gun for fun / competition.
2. You trust something made in China that can and will eventually fail.

This is my case. I only use that gun for the range, not even competition. If the windshield fails...I'll buy another one for less than 100 bucks and could buy 5 of them before I would even come close to an American made windshield. Ill be dead by then.

My carry gun or anything I would rely on heavily, has night sights and no windshields to fail...american made or chinese made. When the night sites get dim after a few years, i change them out for 40 bucks.

 

[GlockBy]

My dots are absolute cowitness with the irons. The dot isn’t zeroed at a specific distance, it’s the same as irons re poa/poi.
If the dots on target, even if not centered in window, it will hit.

Your dot is zeroed at whatever distance you zeroed it at. Height over bore is less of a concern on handguns than on ARs, but it is still there.

What gun/cut/rds/stock sights combo do you have? This is what "absolute cowitness" looks like btw, irons blocking roughly half of the optic window (from night fission site linked by nm1):

 

[Masswhole]

Your dot is zeroed at whatever distance you zeroed it at. Height over bore is less of a concern on handguns than on ARs, but it is still there.

What gun/cut/rds/stock sights combo do you have? This is what "absolute cowitness" looks like btw, irons blocking roughly half of the optic window (from night fission site linked by nm1):

View attachment 953031

Holosun SCS/glock night sites on my g19.
sig RomeoX Compact enclosed/stock night fision sights on my shadow systems.
Both direct mount/no plate, non suppressor height irons.


This is the shadow sight picture.



Here’s the g19

 

[GlockBy]

Holosun SCS/glock night sites on my g19.
sig RomeoX Compact enclosed/stock night fision sights on my shadow systems.
Both direct mount/no plate, non suppressor height irons.


This is the shadow sight picture.

View attachment 953078

Here’s the g19
View attachment 953091

Thank you! I would say they are closer to lower 1/3 cowitness.

 

[SpeedwayMike]

Happened to me last year. During one of the stages the battery tray decides to escape from the optic and yeeted itself.

So it does happen!

 

[Broc Tuah]

This is my case. I only use that gun for the range, not even competition. If the windshield fails...I'll buy another one for less than 100 bucks and could buy 5 of them before I would even come close to an American made windshield. Ill be dead by then.

My carry gun or anything I would rely on heavily, has night sights and no windshields to fail...american made or chinese made. When the night sites get dim after a few years, i change them out for 40 bucks.

Then you don't need it.

My steel challenge .22 doesn't have iron sights.

All my other guns have iron sights because shooting iron sights is a skill that needs practice. Whether you love iron sights or not.

 

[Tartakovsky]

Batteries die and so do optics, so yes, irons are necessary. On more than one occasion, I’ve gotten to the range to find my red dot or scope has a dead battery. In real life, I don’t want to depend on something that requires a battery. Even then, I don’t want to depend on something that requires fragile glass, prisms and shit either.

 

[Masswhole]

Batteries die and so do optics, so yes, irons are necessary. On more than one occasion, I’ve gotten to the range to find my red dot or scope has a dead battery. In real life, I don’t want to depend on something that requires a battery. Even then, I don’t want to depend on something that requires fragile glass, prisms and shit either.

Yep, which is why I shoot with the dot off/using irons on every range trip.

 

[kalash]

You really should be using both eyes open for irons most of the time as well.

I so wish my eyes were capable of this.

 

[GlockBy]

I so wish my eyes were capable of this.

Are you cross eye dominant and aiming with the non dominant eye by any chance?

 

[kalash]

Are you cross eye dominant and aiming with the non dominant eye by any chance?

Cross eye dominance makes no difference with pistol shooting. My issue is just... my eyes. I spent over a year working on shooting with both eyes open and target focused with irons, literally every day - no luck, my vision just scrambles on transitions. Shooting a dot is easy; with irons I just have to shut one eye, no other way around it for me unfortunately. Most people should be able to shoot irons with both eyes open and I'm jealous of them.

 

[GlockBy]

Cross eye dominance makes no difference with pistol shooting. My issue is just... my eyes. I spent over a year working on shooting with both eyes open and target focused with irons, literally every day - no luck, my vision just scrambles on transitions. Shooting a dot is easy; with irons I just have to shut one eye, no other way around it for me unfortunately. Most people should be able to shoot irons with both eyes open and I'm jealous of them.

That was a YES or NO question that you choose not answer.

Maybe you do have another issue, but yes, cross eye dominance absolutely makes a difference for pistol shooting. If you are CYD and forcing aiming with non dominant eye with both eyes open, you will have the same exact symptoms you describe. You can kinda force yourself to aim with whatever eye you want while stationary, then your eyes will go to default mode on transition and your picture will be off. Solution here is to bring pistol in line with dominant eye LOS and use it for aiming.