Does manufacturing an SBR on a preban lower make the lower post ban?

Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,653
Likes
453
Feedback: 6 / 0 / 0
Title covers it. As you are "manufacturing" an SBR when you put a short barrel on it does that void out the preban status of a lower? Considering making a 9mm AR SBR but dont want to spend the extra money on preban if no more protections are offered.
 
Technically an SBR isn't a rifle in MA, so I'm not sure that it matters.

Moved to the NFA section.
 
Technically an SBR isn't a rifle in MA, so I'm not sure that it matters.

Moved to the NFA section.

Wouldn't you say it's sort of a grey area, it's still semi automatic with a detachable magazine??

I feel like i wouldn't want to find out the hard way.

I really don't worry about Pre-ban anymore. I'd rather have a muzzle comp/brake than a flash hider, and pinning the stock where it is comfortable is fine for me. Save your money unless you want collect ability, in my opinion reselling an engraved lower receiver with your name permanently attached will drop it's value.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't you say it's sort of a grey area, it's still semi automatic with a detachable magazine??

I feel like i wouldn't want to find out the hard way, .

I tend to agree with the reasoning that an SBR is not subject to the AWB but prefer to play it safe. However you are considered to be manufacturing an SBR via the lower when you register it. In my eyes that makes it sound like it is now a post ban lower. I dunno. The cost involved in a preban lower is not that bad really for the insurance it offers but if it becomes postban when sbr'd it is useless to me.
 
I tend to agree with the reasoning that an SBR is not subject to the AWB but prefer to play it safe. However you are considered to be manufacturing an SBR via the lower when you register it. In my eyes that makes it sound like it is now a post ban lower. I dunno. The cost involved in a preban lower is not that bad really for the insurance it offers but if it becomes postban when sbr'd it is useless to me.

IMHO i don't think it makes it post ban, the serial number hasn't changed or been created/re created.
 
But dont you manufacture a new firearm when you SBR it in the eyes of the ATF?

This isn't an ATF issue though, regardless, as ATF could care less about "pre vs post ban". What matters is what happens under MGL... which is nothing. MGL doesn't give special dispensation to SBRs nor is any kind of special license required under MGL to own an SBR.

-Mike
 
This isn't an ATF issue though, regardless, as ATF could care less about "pre vs post ban". What matters is what happens under MGL... which is nothing. MGL doesn't give special dispensation to SBRs nor is any kind of special license required under MGL to own an SBR.

-Mike

I get that, my question is oriented around using a collapsible stock etc on said SBR. I understand there are two schools of thought on whether SBR's are subject to the AWB but my concern was that even a preban could not really be preban if "manufactured" by the person creating the SBR.
 
Put a bullet button on it and you can have as many evil features you want. Changing mags with one isn't that bad and you can always change back

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
 
Put a bullet button on it and you can have as many evil features you want. Changing mags with one isn't that bad and you can always change back

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Bullet button in Mass?? I'd stay far away from that.. California law is specific about using a tool to release the magazine, but mass is very unclear and far from concise.
 
Put a bullet button on it and you can have as many evil features you want. Changing mags with one isn't that bad and you can always change back

CA's byzantine empire AWB stuff is in no way relevant to MA or any other state's AWB, for that matter. Unless you're in CA you're best off forgetting about any of that crap.

-Mike
 
So since the "manufacturing" that occurs happens at the federal level with no knowledge of the state a preban is still a preban? Seems a postban SBR is equally protected (depending on interpretation), that may be my route.
 
So since the "manufacturing" that occurs happens at the federal level with no knowledge of the state a preban is still a preban? Seems a postban SBR is equally protected (depending on interpretation), that may be my route.

if the item itself was a complete rifle on or before 9/13/94 then it's pre-ban. period. you can't change that. pre-ban is pre-ban forever. what you are now doing is taking the pre-ban lower and you yourself are "manufacturing" the title II firearm according to the feds.

as jasons said--a title II firearm does not meet the definition of "rifle" in the MGLs. i've posted about it several times. since the wording of the MGLs is the way it is then you're fine. no there aren't test cases, no there isn't further legislation, there's just the current laws on the books in black and white. don't be stupid with things and you won't have any problems.
 
I tend to agree with the reasoning that an SBR is not subject to the AWB but prefer to play it safe. However you are considered to be manufacturing an SBR via the lower when you register it. In my eyes that makes it sound like it is now a post ban lower. I dunno. The cost involved in a preban lower is not that bad really for the insurance it offers but if it becomes postban when sbr'd it is useless to me.

if the item itself was a complete rifle on or before 9/13/94 then it's pre-ban. period. you can't change that. pre-ban is pre-ban forever. what you are now doing is taking the pre-ban lower and you yourself are "manufacturing" the title II firearm according to the feds.

as jasons said--a title II firearm does not meet the definition of "rifle" in the MGLs. i've posted about it several times. since the wording of the MGLs is the way it is then you're fine. no there aren't test cases, no there isn't further legislation, there's just the current laws on the books in black and white. don't be stupid with things and you won't have any problems.

In doing some research on BATFE letters during the Federal AWB, I stumbled on the following that should be of potential interest here.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92493&goto=nextoldest

Take particular note about the status change if a pre-ban lower is sold without the other parts.

Although MA isn't obligated to interpret things the same way, you can bet that if they can hang their hat on something more restrictive than common sense, they will.
 
that is insane right there.

however the magic words would be... well, no words at all. writing the man to ask for clarification is inviting him into your life.

just don't do that.
 
I
Although MA isn't obligated to interpret things the same way, you can bet that if they can hang their hat on something more restrictive than common sense, they will.

Yeah, but good luck to them proving that something was or wasn't a rifle, etc. Good luck to them drawing a jury through a painful tautology of an argument (which is what would be required to secure a conviction). Yeah they could still ruin you financially but they probably won't be able to convict you. It's like that whole "must have been assembled as an AW" bit. That will NEVER be a linchpin in a conviction because it's difficult, if not impossible for them to prove. The only way the state will ever prove that is if the defendant is dumb enough to talk themselves into a conviction.

To the OP: If your that afraid of the machine, my suggestion is to sell the gun/lower to someone who isn't. It'll make your life a lot easier.

-Mike
 
To the OP: If your that afraid of the machine, my suggestion is to sell the gun/lower to someone who isn't. It'll make your life a lot easier.

-Mike

My intention was to build an sbr with "assault weapon" features. I have not yet picked a lower to do that with I was considering buying a preban lower or using a bullet post ban I already have. It seems that a) In ma there is a legal argument for sbr's not being subject to the awb b) it seems like the protections offered by a preban would be limited to avoid any conflict on the first point.
 
Last edited:
So if something (like an SBR) isn't a rifle under MA law, does it automatically become a pistol? Why not?

One reason I ask is because I have thought about assembling a AR without a buttstock, but with the full length barrel. Under state law, as long as I'm over 16" barrel, and over 26" OAL, I have a rifle right? But under Federal Law, since I would have something that is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, I would have a pistol. This would allow me to later put a stock on to make a rifle, and yet when I leave the state I would be free to assemble it as a pistol with a short barreled upper.
 
Last edited:
CA's byzantine empire AWB stuff is in no way relevant to MA or any other state's AWB, for that matter. Unless you're in CA you're best off forgetting about any of that crap.

-Mike

True. But the magazine is no longer "detachable" so according to the letter of the law it's ok. Not saying that some judge might see it differently, but as it's been said before ANY magazine can be detached with tools so needing one to remove it would be a major legal point in it favor.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
 
True. But the magazine is no longer "detachable" so according to the letter of the law it's ok.

Under whose interpretation? Certainly not via MA, and certainly not via the feds. There is no legal source of authority for that in MA. CA is different because the AG has actually come out and said what is and isn't legal, etc, etc, ad nauseam. A situation that we do not have the luxury (or curse) of in MA.

-Mike
 
So if something (like an SBR) isn't a rifle under MA law, does it automatically become a pistol? Why not?

It becomes a "firearm."

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/Chapter140/Section121

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

“Shotgun”, a weapon having a smooth bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 18 inches with an overall length equal to or greater than 26 inches, and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

“Weapon”, any rifle, shotgun or firearm.
 
My intention was to build an sbr with "assault weapon" features. I have not yet picked a lower to do that with I was considering buying a preban lower or using a bullet post ban I already have. It seems that a) In ma there is a legal argument for sbr's not being subject to the awb b) it seems like the protections offered by a preban would be limited to avoid any conflict on the first point.

I've seen where EOPS has interpreted that the AWB applies to NFA stuff. I have no expertise here, just passing that info along.

As Mike says above, a conviction may be difficult but draining your bank account and mortgaging your house to defend yourself is much less than a fun exercise.
 
I've seen where EOPS has interpreted that the AWB applies to NFA stuff. I have no expertise here, just passing that info along.

As Mike says above, a conviction may be difficult but draining your bank account and mortgaging your house to defend yourself is much less than a fun exercise.

Thanks for the information. Convoluted laws certainly don't make things easy. I am just going to sbr my post ban and use a fixed stock. No point taking the risk and the price premium on the preban lower does not seem to be worth it considering I could still get jammed up.
 
I've seen where EOPS has interpreted that the AWB applies to NFA stuff. I have no expertise here, just passing that info along.

Len, they also pooped out that wonderful AWB memo a few years ago, that contradicts the law, not so sure I would put a lot of faith in one of their edicts.

-Mike
 
It's OK, neither does EOPSS.

[rofl] So true, but they do have some big *******s to pull stuff out of there! [wink]


Len, they also pooped out that wonderful AWB memo a few years ago, that contradicts the law, not so sure I would put a lot of faith in one of their edicts.

-Mike

True that. Check your Email.
 
Back
Top Bottom