Fatal Shooting in Worcester by Westborough LTC holder UPDATE: Guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter! 4-7 Year Sentence with 77 Days Credit.

GaryO said:
If you follow the Ccw sub on Reddit, I'm always surprised by the amount of people who carry are willing to go to deadly force at the slightest provocation. I was reading one today when the guy claimed that someone in his apartment complex jiggled his door knob. The poster said that he went in the other room and grabbed his home defense pistol and yelled through the door to go away or he will shoot him in the face. Maybe these people are just karma farming but I see these stories all the time.
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Except that's not what happened here.
 
Just to be clear here.

I do NOT know how I would have handled the situation.
The stupid in this case abounds.
I wish they both stayed home that night and watched a movie.
I do not know 100% of what happened both inside the bar and outside.

It's a terrible outcome yes but don't walk up to people and assault them.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
I'm thinking more about questions like:
  • Do you have an LTC from this or any other state?
  • Do you own any firearms? How many? Any handguns? Any AR15s?
  • Have you publicly expressed any opinion about armed self defense?
  • Do you ever carry a gun for self defense?
  • Are you a member of any gun advocacy organizations?
LTC would probably be enough for a peremptory challenge; the variable is if the court felt that challenging someone because they carried a gun for defense created a "there but for the grace of God go I" bias on the part of such a potential juror and "for cause" exclusion requests by the prosecution would be honored..

It slices a both ways. The defense probably would not want someone who was a member of a group that lobbied against commoners carrying guns on the jury.

Remember, the prosecution's job is to secure a conviction, not obtain an unbiased jury.
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I wasn't asked any of those questions on a case of a guy shooting a dealer. OK, well technically it was his brother that shot the dealer, but since the actual shooter absconded and fentanyled himself into a grave on the lam, they tried to get the defendant. I was expecting questions about guns/LTC/etc during voir dire, but nothing. They were way more interested in whether a person being homeless/using drugs would influence my decision.
 
pdm said:
I wasn't asked any of those questions on a case of a guy shooting a dealer. OK, well technically it was his brother that shot the dealer, but since the actual shooter absconded and fentanyled himself into a grave on the lam, they tried to get the defendant. I was expecting questions about guns/LTC/etc during voir dire, but nothing. They were way more interested in whether a person being homeless/using drugs would influence my decision.
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Interesting, but that does not sound like a case where the prosecution would be concerned about a LTC holding juror thinking "it could have been me" where the issue is justification.
 
Wow... 32 pages discussion if the LTC holder is at fault or not.... of course he is. Every time in MA you pull your gun outside of your home - you are at fault. What are we discussing here?

/sarcasm
 
HARRYM said:
I watched the video, multiple times. Stop walking up to people and punching them. I refuse to look at it any other way.
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You don’t have to look the other way. But if your response to a punch from a person of similar size is to draw your gun and shoot them, then you will probably wind up in jail for a long time.

The law is what it is, not what you want it to be. You can repeat yourself as many times as you want, but that won’t change the law to what you want it to be.
 
hunt4riches said:
At some point we need to decide if we are going to be a civilized and free society and pay the cleaning fee for doing so, and decide if the individual right to peace and well-being trumps all else.
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You are talking about what you want the law to be. I am talking about what the law is. These are two different things. If you carry a gun then you had better know the difference.
 
M1911 said:
You are talking about what you want the law to be. I am talking about what the law is. These are two different things. If you carry a gun then you had better know the difference.
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It's not really up to your or me. The DA, Jury and Judge get to decide. Our laws are often vague and said DA's and Judges can be left leaning, so while the law can be completely on our side, we can still get our lives ruined.
 
M1911 said:
You don’t have to look the other way. But if your response to a punch from a person of similar size is to draw your gun and shoot them, then you will probably wind up in jail for a long time.

The law is what it is, not what you want it to be. You can repeat yourself as many times as you want, but that won’t change the law to what you want it to be.
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Who was the victim?
 
HARRYM said:
The human right to defend yourself isn't contingent upon physical stature. Is it also true that one has a right to self defense even if one believes they are in a threatened situation regardless of any physical assault?
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If a 10 year old girl Kicks you in the leg I guess you can shoot her then?

Self defense gun usage is only legal in a "deadly" situation.

A 4'11" 90 year old lady in NH was accosted by a 6ft 20 year old drug addict. She shot him dead no charges.

Abdul Rahman (boxer who fought Muhammad Ali) was on a bus accosted by some teens. They followed him he shot 1 dead found not guilty. He was a senior citizen.

If you are a male fit 6ft+ under 65 and someone smaller/female comes at u without a weapon ur gonna have to go hands. It's not a deadly threat.
 
Springfield_trapdoor said:
If a 10 year old girl Kicks you in the leg I guess you can shoot her then?

Self defense gun usage is only legal in a "deadly" situation.

A 4'11" 90 year old lady in NH was accosted by a 6ft 20 year old drug addict. She shot him dead no charges.

Abdul Rahman (boxer who fought Muhammad Ali) was on a bus accosted by some teens. They followed him he shot 1 dead found not guilty. He was a senior citizen.

If you are a male fit 6ft+ under 65 and someone smaller/female comes at u without a weapon ur gonna have to go hands. It's not a deadly threat.
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Can we effin stop with the brainless shoot a kid bullshit....if that's all you got save it please.

Who is the victim?
 
HARRYM said:
I think I'm actually the guilty one of starting it......
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I had to read a bunch of pages but I did find that the guy in the car was much larger than the little guy punching his window (6'2" young guy vs 5'5" old guy)so that's why they deemed it not self-defense.

That's why I brought up.

A 4'11" 90 year old lady in NH was accosted by a 6ft 20 year old drug addict. She shot him dead no charges.

Abdul Rahman (boxer who fought Muhammad Ali) was on a bus accosted by some teens. They followed him he shot 1 dead found not guilty. He was a senior citizen.
 
Springfield_trapdoor said:
What are you talking about victim? This whole thread is about some big dude who got scared of a little guy punching his window and then shot him.
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Blending different cases. Big dude shooting little puncher was NH, shooter guilty. Dude in car shooting road rager who punched out his window is the Worcester case and is on going.
 
HARRYM said:
Can we effin stop with the brainless shoot a kid bullshit....if that's all you got save it please.

Who is the victim?
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Once again, just because you are attacked doesn’t mean you can legally respond with deadly force. You can respond with force, but you can’t respond with deadly force unless the threat rises to the level of danger of death or grave bodily injury.

That’s the reality and you need to face it. You don’t have to like the law or agree with it but you had better understand it.

Go read Branca’s book The Law of Self Defense. He explains it far better than I can.

If you are not willing to educate yourself about the law, then you just might find yourself in some very hot water.
 
M1911 said:
Once again, just because you are attacked doesn’t mean you can legally respond with deadly force. You can respond with force, but you can’t respond with deadly force unless the threat rises to the level of danger of death or grave bodily injury.

That’s the reality and you need to face it. You don’t have to like the law or agree with it but you had better understand it.

Go read Branca’s book The Law of Self Defense. He explains it far better than I can.

If you are not willing to educate yourself about the law, then you just might find yourself in some very hot water.
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Who was the victim.
 
M1911 said:
Once again, just because you are attacked doesn’t mean you can legally respond with deadly force. You can respond with force, but you can’t respond with deadly force unless the threat rises to the level of danger of death or grave bodily injury.

That’s the reality and you need to face it. You don’t have to like the law or agree with it but you had better understand it.

Go read Branca’s book The Law of Self Defense. He explains it far better than I can.

If you are not willing to educate yourself about the law, then you just might find yourself in some very hot water.
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Exactly.

Not that long ago was doing rideshare in Boston some Harvard rich kid slammed on his brakes backed up couldn't go anywhere so just sat in the car as he got out started punching the window. Didn't reach for a gun just reached for the phone and this happened.


View: https://youtu.be/G721ACkaziA?si=9-Jm0-JiH8K8DuKu
 
Springfield_trapdoor said:
A real man admits when he's wrong.

The fact is you need to comprehend that the victim can become the aggressor if he uses too much force.

Go sucker punch the Rock and when he crushes your skull I'm sure he'll be in jail.

Disproportionate force.
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A victim of assault and battery can become the aggressor and therefore guilty if he uses "too much" force you say.....
 
HARRYM said:
A victim of assault and battery can become the aggressor and therefore guilty if he uses "too much" force you say.....
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That's what the law says there's countless police officers in jail right now because they shot some guy that was talking too loud or a guy in a wheelchair that was running away after he robbed a store.


View: https://youtu.be/yVtR-wpOjeI?si=DOeekW0IrSneOFup


You clearly have a very dangerous mindset and need to educate yourself on the laws especially if you are a tall strong man if you are a small old lady you are in a much better position.
 
Sorry I ain't playing the Goldilocks and the 3 bears whether the porridge of defensive force was too cold, too hot or just right. He was a VICTIM of assault and battery and defended himself from it going any further.
 
Springfield_trapdoor said:
That's what the law says there's countless police officers in jail right now because they shot some guy that was talking too loud or a guy in a wheelchair that was running away after he robbed a store.


View: https://youtu.be/yVtR-wpOjeI?si=DOeekW0IrSneOFup


You clearly have a very dangerous mindset and need to educate yourself on the laws especially if you are a tall strong man if you are a small old lady you are in a much better position.
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Well I am one of those MAGA folks that many want killed so there's that.....
 
HARRYM said:
Sorry I ain't playing the Goldilocks and the 3 bears whether the porridge of defensive force was too cold, too hot or just right. He was a VICTIM of assault and battery and defended himself from it going any further.
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So choose your own adventure.

Here was the same situation Guy got out of the car started punching the window I reached for the phone what would you do here?


View: https://youtu.be/G721ACkaziA?si=lOQb8C7YSnWCAZjS


You really gonna shoot this tool?


Or let him go crazy get arrested and then his family gives you a bunch of money to drop the charges.?

Sadly when started recording he immediately stopped and drove off with a little pissy brake job.
 
Springfield_trapdoor said:
So choose your own adventure.

Here was the same situation Guy got out of the car started punching the window I reached for the phone what would you do here?


View: https://youtu.be/G721ACkaziA?si=lOQb8C7YSnWCAZjS


You really gonna shoot this tool?


Or let him go crazy get arrested and then his family gives you a bunch of money to drop the charges.?

Sadly when started recording he immediately stopped and drove off with a little pissy brake job.
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Not even the same. I'm done with the nonsense.
 

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