finacial collapse?

[76Too]

I agree. But the matter of time will seriously depend on the amount of resistance. Local police won't have any effect. Military is the only group with enough bodies and fire power.

Local police and military have a lot more people that are on OUR side than you might think. If you are or if you are NOT a member of service, you can still join the OathKeepers and swear an oath to defend The Constitution as many of us have done already.

Getting involved locally and knowing who your allies are goes a long way in a disaster situation (such as a blizzard or hurricane) or financial collapse.

For example, MOST of my unit (USMC Reserves) is located in or around New Haven, CT…but if the SHTF…and if the situation allows, some of the guys in my unit are meeting up at an undisclosed location with their direct families to make sure that everyone is safe (first) and that we can come together as a group, pool our resources and training…and not only SURVIVE…but ENSURE THE CONSTITUTION remains intact and unscathed to our best ability.

The military is not (yet) part of the machine you fear…at least not in spirit. We are only obligated to follow 'all lawful orders'…and if martial law is enacted…there ARE NO LAWFUL ORDERS…PERIOD!!!

I may be jeopardizing my military career by saying some of this, but if it gives a few people comfort knowing that some of us are prepared to go the full 9 yards for The Constitution of the United States of America…then so be it.

-Iron Mike

 

[RickH]

Local police and military have a lot more people that are on OUR side than you might think. If you are or if you are NOT a member of service, you can still join the OathKeepers and swear an oath to defend The Constitution as many of us have done already.

Getting involved locally and knowing who your allies are goes a long way in a disaster situation (such as a blizzard or hurricane) or financial collapse.

For example, MOST of my unit (USMC Reserves) is located in or around New Haven, CT…but if the SHTF…and if the situation allows, some of the guys in my unit are meeting up at an undisclosed location with their direct families to make sure that everyone is safe (first) and that we can come together as a group, pool our resources and training…and not only SURVIVE…but ENSURE THE CONSTITUTION remains intact and unscathed to our best ability.

The military is not (yet) part of the machine you fear…at least not in spirit. We are only obligated to follow 'all lawful orders'…and if martial law is enacted…there ARE NO LAWFUL ORDERS…PERIOD!!!

I may be jeopardizing my military career by saying some of this, but if it gives a few people comfort knowing that some of us are prepared to go the full 9 yards for The Constitution of the United States of America…then so be it.

-Iron Mike

I hear the same thing from my LEO friends.

Thank god for people like you Mike. It's great to to know you're out there just in case.

 

[Tracer1951]

i often contemplate these scenarios and wonder where I would stand as a United States Marine. For example, in any case 'martial law' was put in place, there would no longer be a constitution for me to defend, unless there was also a revolution against the machine (rage.)

I

i often contemplate these scenarios and wonder where I would stand as a United States Marine. For example, in any case 'martial law' was put in place, there would no longer be a constitution for me to defend, unless there was also a revolution against the machine (rage.)

The Constitution and those principle written so long ago do not end or disappear just because a tyrant comes to power.

The Constitution was written by the People for the People.

If "Martial Law" was put into place it would depend on the reason, the restrictions, the freedoms suspended and duration.

If all political and legal systems were declared illegal and disbanded, the powers that seized control would try to control the people
by controlling the distribution of food, water, fuel, and power.

Their ability to hold and maintain power would rely on their ability control the distribution of those commodities.

Tyrants will rely on fear and force to maintain their control and any opposing force that disrupts the tyrants control will be considered the enemy.

In the history of our country and women have risen up in times of need to take on injustice and fought for our rights and freedom.
As it was in the past so it will be in the future.

Never underestimate the will and resolve of the American people... other tyrants have and lost and have ended up on the trash heap of history.

Never in the history of the United States have so many weapons and ammunition been in the hands of its citizens.

Each day, week, month and year that amount grows.

If the unthinkable happens and that time does come..... as history has proven before, we will be there, willing, ready and more than able.


PS The Oath we took when we joined had no expiration date...think of the thousands of citizen soldiers trained over the last 40 years that have military/combat experience. Young or old we are a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Hiltonizer]

The Constitution and those principle written so long ago do not end or disappear just because a tyrant comes to power.

The Constitution was written by the People for the People.

The constitution either allows for all this shit, or failed to prevent it... it's useless particularly in a SHTF situation. Write it out of your SHTF plan philosophy, it will only disappoint you again, and again, and again. Its track record promises nothing but. Ask the south, or the whiskey rebels how their brothers in arms treated them with the right propaganda coming from the top. The armed forces is your enemy despite how many good guys seem to make up their ranks.

 

[Tracer1951]

The constitution either allows for all this shit, or failed to prevent it... it's useless particularly in a SHTF situation. Write it out of your SHTF plan philosophy, it will only disappoint you again, and again, and again. Its track record promises nothing but. Ask the south, or the whiskey rebels how their brothers in arms treated them with the right propaganda coming from the top. The armed forces is your enemy despite how many good guys seem to make up their ranks.

Ok lets throw out the Constitution....fair enough...

So what rules or blueprint for a society do you suggest?

Everyman/woman for themselves sure won't work or last for long.

A new society will evolve so what values and beliefs should this new society have for its citizens'?

Care to suggest a better document to use?

 

[Hiltonizer]

Ok lets throw out the Constitution....fair enough...

So what rules or blueprint for a society do you suggest?

Everyman/woman for themselves sure won't work or last for long.

A new society will evolve so what values and beliefs should this new society have for its citizens'?

Care to suggest a better document to use?

No document will work, that's the point... people are too ****ing useless. Economics is the only thing proven to move society forward.

This should get you started, enjoy.

 

[OfficerObie59]

The constitution either allows for all this shit, or failed to prevent it... Ask the south, or the whiskey rebels how their brothers in arms treated them with the right propaganda coming from the top. The armed forces is your enemy despite how many good guys seem to make up their ranks.

That's such a bullshit argument.

At the end of the day, the constitution is a piece of paper. And of course, no piece of paper alone can prevent human action. It's the people via their actions who give meaning to those words. And when someone decides X means Y, the document is doomed to fail.

There's nothing wrong with the Constitution. The problem is with the power hungry politicians and judges who've decided it doesn't mean what it says. And we failed to reign those leaders using the political process when the times demanded it.

 

[BattleSnail]

If the SHTF hard enough, and home loan defaults were at the point where 50% or more of homeowners were in default then the banks couldn't realistically foreclose on all of them. A LOT of people who always saved money and lived withing their means would still get caught up in it, lose their jobs and not be able to pay their bills...I'm one of them. I have enough saved up to last me realistically a year give or take a few months depending on any surprise emergencies. I've always played by the rules and paid my own way. If I lose everything because of this government and the banksters, they're gonna need a few MRAPS to get me out of my house.

As bad as the 2008 crisis was, it could have been a lot worse and still probably will be in a matter of time. The .gov and FED are doing all they can to hold off the inevitable but our country's debt chickens are gonna come home to roost sooner or later. They "system" could absorb the default rates we saw, but in a crisis twice or 3 times as bad? Forget it...total social breakdown and all bets are off. If that day comes I'm writing all my debts off and I'll pay the bill collectors in lead.

 

[Kevin_NH]

One thing most people ignore is that an overnight collapse is unlikely, it's more likely to take years for things to go from "crappy" to "anarchy", to get to the point where police stop showing up at work because they either aren't getting paid, or nobody in town accepts plastic dollars for food anymore.

You can't just plan for the end game where rules don't apply, you have to also plan for the intervening years when society and it's laws still exist, but things just plain suck. Less Mad Max, more Max Headroom.

No document will work, that's the point... people are too ****ing useless. Economics is the only thing proven to move society forward.This should get you started, enjoy. <VIDEO>

So you're saying we should listen to an anarchist to determine how to prevent anarchy?

 

[Wadcutter]

One thing most people ignore is that an overnight collapse is unlikely, it's more likely to take years for things to go from "crappy" to "anarchy",...You can't just plan for the end game where rules don't apply,...

Well put. Even in the case of a near collapse, governments don't stop enforcing laws, if anything they step it up a few notches. Laying low, avoiding attention and conflict is the wisest approach.

 

[BattleSnail]

One thing most people ignore is that an overnight collapse is unlikely, it's more likely to take years for things to go from "crappy" to "anarchy", to get to the point where police stop showing up at work because they either aren't getting paid, or nobody in town accepts plastic dollars for food anymore.

You can't just plan for the end game where rules don't apply, you have to also plan for the intervening years when society and it's laws still exist, but things just plain suck. Less Mad Max, more Max Headroom.


So you're saying we should listen to an anarchist to determine how to prevent anarchy?

you'd be surprised. Read up on Long Term Capital Management. The geniuses (< not sarc) that came up with the Black Scholes Options Pricing Model created a hedge fund that after generating a few years of mind boggling legit returns suddenly spun rapidly and violently out of control based on a little fluctuation in the southeast asian real estate market. The entire global economy very nearly went to shit overnight.

 

[Nick Fury]

Some good posts here. My point about authority doing all it can to remain so still stands. I do not believe for one second that when paychecks dry up so will the will to enforce. I know it seems logical on the surface but picture what society would have to be like for this to happen. Not pretty. Nobody is going to take off the robes and drop the badge to stand in bread lines with common folk just because a monetary incentive is no longer there. Other ways to support ones immediate needs will surface.

Look at those Iraqis who were owed months in back pay yet still showed up. Why was that? Because it was still the best thing going. Those who think it will be different because of what country they grew up in are in for a rude awakening. It's called being human. No border can correct that.

 

[BattleSnail]

Some good posts here. My point about authority doing all it can to remain so still stands. I do not believe for one second that when paychecks dry up so will the will to enforce. I know it seems logical on the surface but picture what society would have to be like for this to happen. Not pretty. Nobody is going to take off the robes and drop the badge to stand in bread lines with common folk just because a monetary incentive is no longer there. Other ways to support ones immediate needs will surface.

Look at those Iraqis who were owed months in back pay yet still showed up. Why was that? Because it was still the best thing going. Those who think it will be different because of what country they grew up in are in for a rude awakening. It's called being human. No border can correct that.

^true, but the the the legitimacy of the government agents, cops, etc goes out the window once the gov't let's the economy crumble and completely fails us They're just ordinary citizens to me once the SHTF and they better stay the **** out of my way.

 

[Hiltonizer]

So you're saying we should listen to an anarchist to determine how to prevent anarchy?

You have your words wrong, what you want to prevent is chaos. The government is descending into chaos, as all governments invariably will at some time, the alternative is pure capitalism. In order for pure capitalism to exist it needs to do so in anarchy.

 

[Hiltonizer]

At the end of the day, the constitution is a piece of paper. And of course, no piece of paper alone can prevent human action. It's the people via their actions who give meaning to those words. And when someone decides X means Y, the document is doomed to fail.

That's exactly the point, I thinks you missed it.

 

[Wadcutter]

^true, but the the the legitimacy of the government agents, cops, etc goes out the window once the gov't let's the economy crumble and completely fails us They're just ordinary citizens to me once the SHTF and they better stay the **** out of my way.

They may not have legitimacy, but they retain power using the most basic tool of government: violence or the threat of violence. Look at countries that have totally collapsed in the last 100 years: Germany, China, Cuba, Iraq etc. Even when they stopped delivering the mail, sending out welfare checks and putting out fires, there were still plenty of official thugs around to crush dessent.

There have been short truly lawless periods like the LA riots, but generally the only way a government goes away is when it is replaced.

If you disagree provide some historical examples.

 

[Nick Fury]

They're just ordinary citizens to me once the SHTF and they better stay the **** out of my way.

That will work fine if you have the properly supported platoon I mentioned earlier. Otherwise your just another domestic terrorist with way too many supplies on hand...

 

[jmjkd]

The top guys are way past the inevitable collapse and the rebuilding process is already in place.
The trans-Atlantic region is like a huge white head that is oozing and ready to burst, everyone knows this.
It's like a foreclosure, once you get over the shock that you are loosing your house, you now can focus on the next move.
First trash removal then rebuilding.

Buckle up the ride will be rough but I believe the good and righteous way will prevail.
We are patriots.
We are the best.
We will not lose.
We will never quit.
Quack quack!!

 

[Rider]

if the shtf the only people with money will be the banks, who will use that money to pay people to come and take your shit if you stop paying for it.

No. Do you people pay any attention at all? Over the past 5 years, the banks have let millions - yes, millions - of people stay in their houses because there were no buyers and the damage that would occur to vacant houses(frozen pipes, theft, vandalism) was too much risk to take.

Sure, the banks would foreclose on you in a second and kick you out if there were other people waiting to buy, but a financial collapse implies the following:

1) stock market collapse - people with money in the market lose most of it.
2) massive layoffs - many people who have jobs lose them, and their means to pay for things.
3) the people with no money saved - most Americans - will be screwed immediately.

Keep in mind, during the Great Recession, the market went down less than 50% and the job market was off by a relatively small amount. Imagine a stock market where the Fed isn't buying every share that is for sale, and where the banks who have all that none close because, actually, they don't have cash to give their customers. Imagine a job market where 50-60% of Americans lose their jobs. When the repo men show up, they die.

A real financial collapse here would be horrible, which is why the government is trying to delay it until the police are fully militarized.

 

[Rider]

you'd be surprised. Read up on Long Term Capital Management. The geniuses (< not sarc) that came up with the Black Scholes Options Pricing Model created a hedge fund that after generating a few years of mind boggling legit returns suddenly spun rapidly and violently out of control based on a little fluctuation in the southeast asian real estate market. The entire global economy very nearly went to shit overnight.

This happened mostly because they wagered that Russia wouldn't default on their debt. When they did default, the fund couldn't post collateral against the losses on their swaps. To this day, I don't think Meriwether would concede his arrogance on that call.

 

[weekendracer]

They may not have legitimacy, but they retain power using the most basic tool of government: violence or the threat of violence. Look at countries that have totally collapsed in the last 100 years: Germany, China, Cuba, Iraq etc. Even when they stopped delivering the mail, sending out welfare checks and putting out fires, there were still plenty of official thugs around to crush dessent.

There have been short truly lawless periods like the LA riots, but generally the only way a government goes away is when it is replaced.

If you disagree provide some historical examples.

A year ago, I'd agree with you, but look at what the government is doing to it's 'enforcement' wing (military and federal agents). They are cutting our pay and benefits, attacking military benefits and keeping them deployed on extended tours and (at least as far as federal LE) morale so low there isn't a number. If you want a bunch of 'brown shirts' running around, you don't kick them in the teeth first. So at least as far as screwing everything up, they are screwing up the ability to use power as well.

Edit: For the record, I"ve had an open resume for the last year now, can't even get a reply much less an interview for either my management experience or contract protection on the LEO side.