Bob J
NES Member
Should not be a problem with firelap rounds..... Very small charges (airgun speed) and abrasives are contained in the lube grooves and are cleaned after each firelap shot....
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FIRELAPPING UPDATE 01/31/10 Savage 10FP Results Post 18
- Thread starter Marcus5aurelius
- Start date
So, shoot the firelap round, and wipe the bore each time?
I have those empty fire formed cases ready to ship out today, Bob.
I have those empty fire formed cases ready to ship out today, Bob.
I think either way is fine, you can either wipe the bore after each individual firelapping shot, or wipe the bore after each batch of firelapping rounds. It's just important to wipe the barrel clean before you shoot regular rounds after any firelapping is done. You can ship the brass to us or if you wanted we could create them at the casting workshop and show you and any other people who are interested how to make them.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
This is the first that I am reading about this idea. Can you also do it with semi-auto pistols? Also, I don't have a press or anything, so would I just be able to get some compound, use my boresnake, and have at it?
I have a Glock 22 and would love to try it out if I could
I have a Glock 22 and would love to try it out if I could
You can use this method for accurizing any type of firearm. The Glock 22 is .40 right? Those would have to be reloaded with the compound using fireformed brass (shot out of that particular firearm and not resized) in order to make the firelapping rounds. I would offer to make them up for you, but we do not reload for .40 unfortunately. All the reloader will need is some dead soft casted bullets, some of the 320 grit compound and the fireformed brass.
.22 is the only caliber that does not require reloading in order to firelap with. In that case you only need to buy subsonic lead bullets and smear a small amount of grit on the bullet (but not the brass)before shooting. All the other calibers beyond .22 require reloading
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ah, ok. Thank you very much.
Another thing that could factor in whether or not I would want to try it in a glock is that you aren't supposed to shoot lead bullets in them. Not sure what you meant by dead soft casted bullets.
My brother was gonna be getting into reloading soon, so if I find out I can do it, I just may.
Another thing that could factor in whether or not I would want to try it in a glock is that you aren't supposed to shoot lead bullets in them. Not sure what you meant by dead soft casted bullets.
My brother was gonna be getting into reloading soon, so if I find out I can do it, I just may.
By dead soft I meant pure lead bullets. Generally casted bullets are alloyed with antimony for increased hardness. Wheelweights are generally an ideal mix for the correct hardness. Just out of curiousity why wouldn't glocks be able to shoot lead? Lead is much softer then copper and therefore won't wear down the barrel like copper jacketed bullets will.
http://www.glockworld.com/content.aspx?Ckey=glockfaqs
In before this gets derailed into a "Glock Kaboom" thread!
![[offtopic]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/038.gif "Off Topic [offtopic]")
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Well that's what I assumed, it's because it will lead. Leading only occurs at relatively high velocities. The firelapping rounds however should have only enough powder for the bullet to exit the barrel, therefore will most likely not lead, however I cannot be certain for glocks. It's really up to you. Sorry to almost derail my own thread, back on topic ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
KMM696
NES Member
I'm curious why fire formed cases were needed for this. The only thing I could come up with is that perhaps the lead in the lapping bullets is soft enough that seating them in a normally sized case is crushing them and increasing their diameter enough to cause problems chambering them. The fire formed case would have the largest possible neck size for that rifle's chamber. I'm just guessing - did the instructions have anything to say on this?
I'm talking myself into trying this rather quickly. I've got a 10FLP which could be an ideal candidate for some fire-lapping. I did read a few articles with some concerns about accelerated throat wear with the lapping process, which might be true, but don't concern me for my application. Even if it does shorten the life of the barrel through throat wear, I would rather have a barrel more accurate for fewer shots, than less accurate for longer.
Excellent review, BTW......
I'm talking myself into trying this rather quickly. I've got a 10FLP which could be an ideal candidate for some fire-lapping. I did read a few articles with some concerns about accelerated throat wear with the lapping process, which might be true, but don't concern me for my application. Even if it does shorten the life of the barrel through throat wear, I would rather have a barrel more accurate for fewer shots, than less accurate for longer.
Excellent review, BTW......
Thanks! Without fireformed brass from that particular gun the rounds will most likely not chamber. Normally reloaders just size the brass but in this case they don't want the standard "fit all" brass size, but instead they want the maximum expansion of the brass within that particular firearm to avoid any abrasive from blowing back and entering the chamber rather than the barrel. The fireformed brass in a way seals any gap between the chamber and the barrel.
ETA: BTW, yes the bullets themselves also must not be sized. With pure lead bullets they basically squish if you attempt to size them. Also we used a 7/8 x 14 bolt to seat the bullets
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Bob J
NES Member
I can't imagine how this would create a problem and use the following logic..... Most lapping involves a "lap" which is a soft material (cast iron, brass, lead etc) and a "work".... In the process of lapping, the "lap" is charged (embedded) with an abrasive and then used to improve the surface finish of the "work".... During this process, all the embedding is in the "lap", not the work..... For a good overview of this process, see the attached link....
http://www.us-products.com/sitehtml/lapping.html
In the case of firelapping we use dead soft lead which we purposely embed with an abrasive.... We want the abrasive to embed in the dead soft lead to ensure that we get a consistent lap the entire length of the barrel.... Given the huge difference in hardness between dead soft lead and the barrel I can not imagine that any lapping compound becomes embedded in the barrel during the firelapping process.... This is also supported by the fact that MV typically increases by roughly 10% between a firelapped barrel and its base brethren.... Logically, if abrasives were embedded in the barrel then friction would result in a lower MV and not a higher one....
The only area you might want to think about is the brass used for the firelapping process..... Because brass is still significantly harder than the dead soft lead the abrasive should not transfer (embed) in the brass but it would be a higher risk than it embedding in the barrel....
Hope this helps.....
- You only shoot a few of these prepared rounds
- You shoot them in groups of five, wiping with a clean cloth between rounds. That gets the abrasive to a "normal" level between shots
- You start with a perfectly clean barrel, having removed all lead, and copper residue, so the effect of the abrasive is on the barrel itself, rather than on any lead or copper fouling.
- Think of the abrasive as working on the microscopic phonograph record type ripples in the rifling. This "chatter" is created during the drawing operation for making the rifling. Even though they use a "draw lube' there's still some stopping and starting of the pulled plug, which causes the chatter. You're removing that chatter, and not trying to remove the rifling per-se
- The addition of front sights and rear sights creates stress areas that translates to the bore sizing. The effect of the chatter ripples gets magnified there. The front sight area is the worst offender. The fire lapping removes most of that affect.
- So, you shoot five of the specially prepared rounds (with the abrasive), one at a time, wiping with a clean cloth between rounds, and then fire a test group with normal rifle rounds.
- You do that ONLY until you achieve the desired result, and then stop using the fire lapping rounds.
- It might only take 5 groups of five shots (25 rounds total) of the fire lapping rounds to get there.
- That's not enough wear and tear to damage anything. Just polishes the ripples out of the barrel.
I can't imagine how this would create a problem and use the following logic..... Most lapping involves a "lap" which is a soft material (cast iron, brass, lead etc) and a "work".... In the process of lapping, the "lap" is charged (embedded) with an abrasive and then used to improve the surface finish of the "work".... During this process, all the embedding is in the "lap", not the work..... For a good overview of this process, see the attached link....
http://www.us-products.com/sitehtml/lapping.html
In the case of firelapping we use dead soft lead which we purposely embed with an abrasive.... We want the abrasive to embed in the dead soft lead to ensure that we get a consistent lap the entire length of the barrel.... Given the huge difference in hardness between dead soft lead and the barrel I can not imagine that any lapping compound becomes embedded in the barrel during the firelapping process.... This is also supported by the fact that MV typically increases by roughly 10% between a firelapped barrel and its base brethren.... Logically, if abrasives were embedded in the barrel then friction would result in a lower MV and not a higher one....
The only area you might want to think about is the brass used for the firelapping process..... Because brass is still significantly harder than the dead soft lead the abrasive should not transfer (embed) in the brass but it would be a higher risk than it embedding in the barrel....
Hope this helps.....
Thanks Bob J. Good info. I was always under the impression that Clover would embed less in harder material but that it would imbed. A few years back I was going to firelap my .22 rifle with 400 grit but concern on the embedding issue kept me from actually doing it. I do feel better about it now, thank you.
I've used a NECO kit on several rifles with jacketed bullets with no ill effects. If I actually had some cast bullets I probably would have used them but the lapping did what I hoped it would. The barrels were no longer copper mines.
B
B
Bob J
NES Member
No problem.... The process I use I picked up from the "Beartooth bullets technical guide" (see link below) and it has been one of my bibles for learning and working with cast bullets..... The author is pretty clear that based on his experimentation only 320 grit clover compound should be used.... We started with a Ruger .22 that shot like a piece of crap and now is one of the best shooters in the safe.... Well worth the time and effort....
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
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