Gun Club closure megathread

Rob Boudrie said:
Are you aware of long standing judicial policy that great deference is to be given to the entity writing regulations when determining what they mean, and that the issuer's interpretation generally considered by the court to be presumptively correct? (and this has nothing to with the cuz guns doctrine).

Are you also aware that the defendant could just issue a revised version of the regulations and undercut any interpretive attack surface?
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I suspected as much, or essentially so, which is why I presumed the first line of attack would be in the contradiction of Faker's guidance with federal guidance, with the interpretation of said guidance as a secondary, or supporting, line of reasoning. Changing the guidance to codify the interpretation of its applicability does not address the first issue.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Or the opposition reading the forums as part of intelligence gathering. The mistake was assuming the state would abide by its own regulations and it was safe to talk about since the regulations clearly exclude outdoor non-congregationous activity, and we are not open to the public.
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Unfortunately when the written text and intent of a given law does not match the desires of Mass Govt they have gotten very good at creating a very expansive interpretation out of whole cloth, using their enforcement power to make it so, and then betting that the courts will back them up, even in cases that don't involve gunz.
 
badshot101 said:
Unfortunately when the written text and intent of a given law does not match the desires of Mass Govt they have gotten very good at creating a very expansive interpretation out of whole cloth, using their enforcement power to make it so, and then betting that the courts will back them up, even in cases that don't involve gunz.
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As I mentioned before, courts generally defer to the agency issuing the regulation on matters of interpretation as to meaning. This is a policy that has long existed outside of the cuz guns doctrine.
I suspected as much, or essentially so, which is why I presumed the first line of attack would be in the contradiction of Faker's guidance with federal guidance
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No offense intended, but it sounds like you are new at this game. The fed issued "guidance" or "suggestions"; the governor issued an "order". Nothing in the law establishes that a suggestion from the feds is binding on the states.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
As I mentioned before, courts generally defer to the agency issuing the regulation on matters of interpretation as to meaning. This is a policy that has long existed outside of the cuz guns doctrine.

No offense intended, but it sounds like you are new at this game. The fed issued "guidance" or "suggestions"; the governor issued an "order". Nothing in the law establishes that a suggestion from the feds is binding on the states.
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But for the order to be binding, a bona fide state of emergency has to exist. Arguably it no longer does, at which point it becomes abusive and a civil rights case.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
HOPKINTON OUTDOOR RANGES CLOSED

As of 8:45AM today, the Hopkinton club is completely closed (outdoor ranges included) and card key access to the range roads disabled.

The governor's office called Hopkinton officials (I believe the health department) and instructed them the club was in violation and instructed the town to order all activity including the outdoor ranges shut down. They also offered to send out the MSP to deliver a cease and desist order if the town would not do the dirty work for them.

The closure has NOTHING to do with the town of Hopkinton (its role was just messenger), and it is clear that the club remains on very good terms with the town and its various agencies. ElPrez has advised me that shutdown means shutdown, and there will be no exceptions made for law enforcement range use.
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If they are shutting down Hopkinton now then there’s no way the rest of the ranges open up May 4 or anything else in this godforsaken state
 
NY is part of the compact and has already extended to May 15th or so, and I expect the DPRM to fall into line.

I expect opening to be in the order of essentiality which puts gun clubs near the bottom of the list, just above gun stores.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
As I mentioned before, courts generally defer to the agency issuing the regulation on matters of interpretation as to meaning. This is a policy that has long existed outside of the cuz guns doctrine.

No offense intended, but it sounds like you are new at this game. The fed issued "guidance" or "suggestions"; the governor issued an "order". Nothing in the law establishes that a suggestion from the feds is binding on the states.
Click to expand...
Not new, just hadn't read the DHS (CISA) letter carefully before and didn't realize it was as toothless as it is:
This list is advisory in nature. It is not, nor should it be considered, a federal directive or standard. Additionally, this advisory list is not intended to be the exclusive list of critical infrastructure sectors, workers, and functions that should continue during the COVID-19 response across all jurisdictions. Individual jurisdictions should add or subtract essential workforce categories based on their own requirements and discretion.
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I thought the guidance was worded more strongly than this. I shall cease holding my breath. Thanks
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Are you aware of long standing judicial policy that great deference is to be given to the entity writing regulations when determining what they mean, and that the issuer's interpretation generally considered by the court to be presumptively correct? (and this has nothing to with the cuz guns doctrine).

Are you also aware that the defendant could just issue a revised version of the regulations and undercut any interpretive attack surface?
Click to expand...
It's called "Chevron Deference".

If Justice Gorsuch has his way, it will be overturned.

www.law.cornell.edu

Chevron deference

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
 
Here's a target for when the ranges open back up:
www.obviouslytactical.com

Coronavirus Shooting Target — Obviously Tactical

Tired of hearing about the Coronavirus and not being able to do anything about it? Have you washed your hands yet? Have you avoided people? Have you called your parents and checked on your elderly neighbors? Good, keep reading… With our brand new coronavirus shooting target, you can show that litt
www.obviouslytactical.com www.obviouslytactical.com
 
Arto said:
Here's a target for when the ranges open back up:
www.obviouslytactical.com

Coronavirus Shooting Target — Obviously Tactical

Tired of hearing about the Coronavirus and not being able to do anything about it? Have you washed your hands yet? Have you avoided people? Have you called your parents and checked on your elderly neighbors? Good, keep reading… With our brand new coronavirus shooting target, you can show that litt
www.obviouslytactical.com www.obviouslytactical.com
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TzXqAWK.jpg


🐯
 
More from Hopkinton....

04/22/2020

Several club members have responded to our notice of club and range closure with questions and more than a few are understandably upset, so we thought it made sense to send out a longer email on the subject.

We are not taking this action lightly, and are not just automatically closing shop because someone told us to. We have a very close relationship with Comm2a, Goal, and others active in the fight for gun rights, and have been discussing a legal strategy that must remain confidential right now. The state has great latitude in matters of public health, so this is not a simple strategy, especially given the state judicial climate around guns.

There were a few emails sent in ranging from "gee, can I just walk in and pop off a few rounds?", to calls for civil disobedience

Civil disobedience and continued shooting will not help our posture with the neighbors, the town, the state, or the courts as we pursue all remedies.

As such, since any shooting on the property will weaken our ultimate position and accomplish nothing useful, anyone shooting on the property until the ban is explicitly lifted will face immediate termination of membership.

This ban applies to all. There will be no law enforcement training or other events while the closure is in place.

Please trust us that we have both the financial resources and the right people onboard to continue to fight for your rights.

If you want to do something helpful, please call the governors office to protest the closure as both inapplicable since we are not a business as well as not achieving any health benefits since there is more than enough room to practice social distancing given the size of our outdoor ranges. I know it often feels like you are not getting anywhere, but silence equals assent, and we need to let them know that a lot of ordinary people oppose this.

Sincerely

Wes Dunnington for HSA Board of Directors
 
Rob Boudrie said:
NY is part of the compact and has already extended to May 15th or so, and I expect the DPRM to fall into line.

I expect opening to be in the order of essentiality which puts gun clubs near the bottom of the list, just above gun stores Crack Houses.
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Shark_Cage said:
A buddy of mine who served in the navy used to joke “when the Phalanx starts up that means the boat is about to sink”.
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FIFY
 
LuvDog said:
FCK... I just loaded up my cases and my truck this morning so I could head there this afternoon to shoot in the rain. Yes, I'm one of those weirdos that likes to shoot in the rain... it means I have the whole place to my self. When I take my son, I like for him to be relaxed and not feel any pressure with the ranges being crowded.
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Yeah, well I’m reading this in the parking lot right now. Apparently I don’t get the e-mails and since it was open a few weeks ago, I figured what’s changed? Well, f*ck me gently with a chainsaw. This is absolute bullshit. 40 minutes each way too. I’m beyond pissed at this point. Private bays, rarely more than 3 or 4 other people on the 100/200 yd. line; it’s the definition of social distancing. Case of slugs arrived yesterday so I finally had a reason to get out of the house. Pissed, defeated? maybe just tired of all this nonsense. Suppose I’ll go hang out with 100 people at Wegmans.
 
Anyone know if any of the still open clubs are accepting new member applications now? The places I normally go are closed and I would love to get out and bust some clay pigeons. I live near the Fall River area.
 
deepred said:
Anyone know if any of the still open clubs are accepting new member applications now? The places I normally go are closed and I would love to get out and bust some clay pigeons. I live near the Fall River area.
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In Mass, any of the few clubs still allowing people to come in aren't running club functions, so you are basically SOL until this BS blows over. On top of that a lot of clubs in new england that
are still running are banning guests for the time being, as well. (likely due to some perception of additional liability because 'rona).

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
On top of that a lot of clubs in new england that are still running are banning guests for the time being, as well. (likely due to some perception of additional liability because 'rona).

-Mike
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"direct supervision" and "social distancing" generally are contraindicated. Some clubs have explicit rules about what "direct supervision" means, and how close you have to be to your guest.
 
drgrant said:
are still running are banning guests for the time being, as well.
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If a club admits guests it can undermine the argument that the club is not open to members of the public. The decree states that workers, customers and the public must be excluded but does not mention members. Admit guests and you are now letting members of the public use your facility.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
If a club admits guests it can undermine the argument that the club is not open to members of the public. The decree states that workers, customers and the public must be excluded but does not mention members. Admit guests and you are now letting members of the public use your facility.
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Good point, I forgot about that aspect of the whole thing.
 

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