Gunshop story: Beware of pre-ban lowers

[Reptile]

I just wanted to relay a story I heard today...

A guy ordered what he thought was a pre-ban lower. He did the research on the lower and serial number and it was legit.

After he got it, he showed it to a rather astute gun dealer who noticed a problem. It had a letter/number in the serial number stamped on it that was not legit. Somebody tried to "forge" a letter or number to make it pre-ban.

I would rather not say who this happened to even though he is not on this board to protect the innocent.

Caveat Emptor - "Let the buyer beware"

 

[LT1MCSS]

wow......that really sucks

 

[Moderator]

I'd get my money back or report the gun. Tampering with or removing serial numbers is a felony.

 

[BillK]

Great, the next thing people will try to fill in "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" and knock them off as MA compliant.

 

[jdubois]

Tampering with or removing serial numbers is a felony.

+1. I'd contact ATF and/or a lawyer immediately. Not only is tampering or removing serial numbers a felony, but so is possession of a gun with an altered serial number.

 

[Moderator]

Great, the next thing people will try to fill in "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" and knock them off as MA compliant.

AFAIK, There is nothing against having guns that say "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" in MA only magazines. I believe some semi-auto AR had it on the receiver.

 

[clinotus]

Following on TYPEO1313 and jdubois' posts, if you know him tell him he needs to act on that advice immediately. Immediately like yesterday, his paper trail is going to be the saving grace.

 

[Reptile]

AFAIK, There is nothing against having guns that say "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" in MA only magazines. I believe some semi-auto AR had it on the receiver.

High Cap mags with "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" were made during the AWB ban. If you have those in Mass it's illegal. In free states you are ok.

 

[Moderator]

High Cap mags with "FOR MILITARY OR LE USE ONLY" were made during the AWB ban. If you have those in Mass it's illegal. In free states you are ok.

I mentioned Ma in my post. I may be wrong but, I don't think many mags with the stamp were made before the ban.

 

[Reptile]

I mentioned Ma in my post. I may be wrong but, I don't think many mags with the stamp were made before the ban.

Oops your are right. I misread your sentence.

 

[wheelgun]

Curious - just exactly how does a "pre-ban" lower differ from a post ban lower, other than serial number? What's the purpose in buying it as a separate part? I thought you can't build a pre-ban rifle today from a pre-ban lower unless that lower was part of a fully assembled rifle before the ban. Is that just a technicality that people are sweeping under the rug these days or am I misinformed?

 

[jdubois]

Curious - just exactly how does a "pre-ban" lower differ from a post ban lower, other than serial number?

Other than in potential and probably trivial manufacturing differences, it doesn't.

What's the purpose in buying it as a separate part?

It theoretically costs less, because you're not paying for the upper.

I thought you can't build a pre-ban rifle today from a pre-ban lower unless that lower was part of a fully assembled rifle before the ban. Is that just a technicality that people are sweeping under the rug these days or am I misinformed?

They're sweeping that detail under the rug. The idea is that it's not provable that it wasn't built up as a complete rifle on the ban date, and that's (supposedly) good enough.

 

[Ripach]

Curious - just exactly how does a "pre-ban" lower differ from a post ban lower, other than serial number? What's the purpose in buying it as a separate part? I thought you can't build a pre-ban rifle today from a pre-ban lower unless that lower was part of a fully assembled rifle before the ban. Is that just a technicality that people are sweeping under the rug these days or am I misinformed?

First I'll say IANAL so take my post FWIW
A pre-ban lower must have been in assault weapon config. at some point before the ban was enacted to still be able to be used as a legal pre-ban now. A lot of people go under the theory that the burden of proof would be on the prosecution to show it had never been an assault weapon, as long as said lower was in the hands of the general public before the ban began, good luck with proving anything either way. Most states require no registration that I'm aware of for stripped lowers being made into rifles. Is this a loophole, or a technicality? Maybe, but when I was searching for a pre-ban, I found that the price for a lower plus parts was almost the same as a complete pre-ban colt. It was not worth it to me to save maybe $200 on the final price, as I don't want to be the test case for anything. BTW, I also believe that the only way anyone is ever going to check the pre-ban status of your rifle for legitimacy, is if you commit some other crime with it. But I'm not willing to put my butt on the line just because no one is checking.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Curious - just exactly how does a "pre-ban" lower differ from a post ban lower, other than serial number? What's the purpose in buying it as a separate part? I thought you can't build a pre-ban rifle today from a pre-ban lower unless that lower was part of a fully assembled rifle before the ban. Is that just a technicality that people are sweeping under the rug these days or am I misinformed?

You are CORRECT.

However, I suspect that many folks are saying "if it was made (as a lower) prior to 9/13/94, that's good enough".

If someone gets jammed up, we'll see if it is good enough or not. Until then, many are taking "risks".

 

[jdubois]

A pre-ban lower must have been in assault weapon config. at some point before the ban was enacted to still be able to be used as a legal pre-ban now.

Not just "some point before" but it actually has to have been an 'assault weapon' on Sept 13, 1994. Not before, not after, but ON THAT DATE. Makes trying to prove it one way or the other even more ridiculous.

 

[Admin]

I really don't worry about those stupid "born on" dates...

 

[BuggsBunny]

+1. I'd contact ATF and/or a lawyer immediately. Not only is tampering or removing serial numbers a felony, but so is possession of a gun with an altered serial number.

If someone finds himself in possession of a gun with an altered serial number, what is the proper, legal way (if any) to get rid of it without opening up yourself to any legal liability?

I've often wondered about this, and it would be great to hear some knowledgeable person answer this (as long as it's relevant enough here not to constitute a thread hijack).

 

[jdubois]

I really don't worry about those stupid "born on" dates...

Are you filling in for doobie tonight?

Yes, MA = FAIL.

 

[doobie]

Are you filling in for doobie tonight?

Yes, MA = FAIL.

No one is capable of filing in for doobie!

When was the last time someone in MA was charged with a violation of the AWB? It's unconstitutional! Challenge it up to the MA SJC!

 

[center442]

I just wanted to relay a story I heard today...

A guy ordered what he thought was a pre-ban lower. He did the research on the lower and serial number and it was legit.

After he got it, he showed it to a rather astute gun dealer who noticed a problem. It had a letter/number in the serial number stamped on it that was not legit. Somebody tried to "forge" a letter or number to make it pre-ban.

I would rather not say who this happened to even though he is not on this board to protect the innocent.

Caveat Emptor - "Let the buyer beware"

I would be less concerned with whether it was pre-ban or post-ban at this point. If the serial number has been altered the guy could be in a world of hurt. Didn't BATFE take the position that a semiautomatic rifle that malfunctioned and fired multiple times was now a machine gun? That doesn't strike me as an organization that would be very understanding about an innocent purchaser who has a firearm with an altered serial number.

At the very least I would transfer it back to the dealer ASAP. If the dealer won't take it back my next call would be to an attorney and then to the BATFE.

I feel bad for the guy. No matter what he does now he has a problem.

 

[jdubois]

If someone finds himself in possession of a gun with an altered serial number, what is the proper, legal way (if any) to get rid of it without opening up yourself to any legal liability?

The most sure way to protect yourself would be to immediately destroy it. ATF Rul. 76-25 defines a firearm destroyed if "cut, severed or mangled in such a manner as to render the firearm completely inoperative and such that it cannot be restored to an operative condition." They have some specific rules on how to destroy several types of machines guns (for the purposes of importing them as non-firearms), which all require torch cutting through the receiver in three or four critical parts. You could generalize this to other firearms, and as long as you torch the firearm all the way through to at several critical sections in the receiver you would be ok.

 

[BuggsBunny]

The most sure way to protect yourself would be to immediately destroy it. ATF Rul. 76-25 defines a firearm destroyed if "cut, severed or mangled in such a manner as to render the firearm completely inoperative and such that it cannot be restored to an operative condition." They have some specific rules on how to destroy several types of machines guns (for the purposes of importing them as non-firearms), which all require torch cutting through the receiver in three or four critical parts. You could generalize this to other firearms, and as long as you torch the firearm all the way through to at several critical sections in the receiver you would be ok.

Thanks for the info, jdubois, I appreciate it. If this were in MA and this hypothetical gun with an altered/obliterated serial number had been duly registered on a FA10, is there any requirement to notify the CHSB or anybody else that the gun has been destroyed and no longer exists? Or just torch/band saw/melt it and forget about it?

 

[jdubois]

is there any requirement to notify the CHSB or anybody else that the gun has been destroyed and no longer exists?

Nope, no such requirement. Torch it, trash it, and keep your mouth shut. If you're paranoid, you could take and store photos of it destroyed, or even keep the remains, in case a question ever comes up.

 

[clinotus]

If someone finds himself in possession of a gun with an altered serial number, what is the proper, legal way (if any) to get rid of it without opening up yourself to any legal liability?

Leave the dog outside in a crated cage.
Leave the front door open.
Wait on the couch.

 

[BuggsBunny]

Nope, no such requirement. Torch it, trash it, and keep your mouth shut. If you're paranoid, you could take and store photos of it destroyed, or even keep the remains, in case a question ever comes up.

Thanks, good to know.

Leave the dog outside in a crated cage.
Leave the front door open.
Wait on the couch.

I ain't that quick sometimes, I have to say.

 

[jdubois]

Leave the dog outside in a crated cage.
Leave the front door open.
Wait on the couch.

Should I have my National ID card out to ensure efficient processing?