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HK Pistols
- Thread starter Chipperman
- Start date
So you bemoan the lack of availability for these mags, then complain when someone gives you a link to some but they are not cheap enough? ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Yes, better deals can be had. But they are not easy to find. This person has them RIGHT NOW, for less than a lot of people are charging.
Yes, better deals can be had. But they are not easy to find. This person has them RIGHT NOW, for less than a lot of people are charging.
M1911 said:
That's not even a fair comparison, given that they're not even the
same class of handgun. I have nothing against Kahr (I owned an MK9 for
awhile, and I thought it was the best in its class) but saying it is even in
the same realm as a P7 is pretty laughable. If it's about
"size" or "cost" I don't think you can really compromise on those elements
on the P7 without detracting from the features that make the gun
what it is.
Strictly from a value proposition? Yeah, I'll be the first to say
that there are a lot of other guns where you get "more" for your
money, proportionally speaking. But if you want a P7, then nothing
else will do. Those interested in it are probably not fixated on
what it costs, or what it's capacity/size/ratio is. There are still plenty
of guns that have "bad" value metrics but are still great firearms.
-Mike
Why's that? What's so uber about the P7, other than it's price? Why is it not a fair comparison? They are both single-stack 9mm of similar capacity. They both have a consistent trigger pull.
Advantages for the K9:
- slimmer
- smaller
- cheaper
- won't heat up as much as the P7 during rapid firing
Disadvantages
- longer, heavier trigger pull.
- doesn't have the P7 cachet.
M1911 said:
Kahr Disadvantages-
-doesn't point as well as a P7 does. (can be subjective, but most would
agree)
-higher bore axis (more recoil/muzzle flip, although this is subjective)
-doesn't have fluted chamber or polygonal bore (P7 can function without
an extractor)
-not as accurate, and not as accurate "at speed" as a P7 is.
-crappier trigger (When a P7 is cocked, you get a single action trigger, not
"the spring assisted DAO" of a Kahr or Glock).
-trigger is hot all the time (P7 is "hot" only when the squeeze cocker is engaged and held). I could
care less, but might be an issue to some.
-no ambi mag release, and mags might not drop free (could be wrong about
NDF, but on a P7M8, when you hit that release it blows the empty
mag out of the gun, which makes for turbo fast reloads.
-Worse fit and finish. While it's not a practical issue, viewing and handling
both pistols, its evidently clear which one is the rolex and which one is
the timex. Both work fine, but the former looks a hell of a lot better.
P7 disadvantages?
-Heat (again, oh noes, its the end of the world that one cant
shoot a really long IPSC or IDPA course with one, big deal)
-Price - IMO only a disadavantage if you need to buy two handguns,
otherwise price is not really a disadvantage, because if you
can't afford a P7 then you won't be buying it anyways, and the
comparison is kinda moot at that point).
-Size- Ignoring the fact that theyre different guns, yeah it's heavier,
but the thin thing is pretty weak argument.... the P7 still has one
of the narrowest slides out there. Some would argue the large
slabs on the P7 make it easier to hold.
-No lead- You can't shoot lead bullets out of a P7. Oh no, the world is
going to end, because I can't shoot crappy,filthy unjacketed bullets!
Holster Cost: Good P7 holsters will cost more, you could probably get
away with a chinsebag holster for a K9, and the K9 holsters
are probably more availiable locally.
Other:
-Repair - IMO this is about neutral, considering that Kahr and HK both
often have notoriously bad CS, so that pretty much evens out.
a well maintained P7 or Kahr will also last a long time, so its kind
of a non issue.
And even just from a technical stanpdoint- these guns don't even use
the same operational principle. So they're not even the same animal
in that regard. The only tangible commonality is that they're both 9mm
and feed from a single stack magazine.
Kahr- Locked Breech Recoil, DAO (or spring assisted DAO)
P7 - Gas Retarded Blowback, SA (when the gun is cocked, it is indeed single action).
Apples vs Oranges if I ever saw it. That is why I own a few "classes" of
products. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Most guns are
good, some are GREAT. Thankfully there is not much "pure trash" out there, like
there is in other industries.
-Mike
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I use my M13 for IDPA matches and other practical style scenarios. It gets hot-- I keep using it. I have never had to stop shooting because it got TOO hot to use. This includes Summer days shooting >100 rounds in less than 30 minutes.
I'm going to disagree with that. The K9 has a very low bore axis, like a Glock. I guess we'd have to put them side by side and measure.
So? Who cares? I've put thousands of rounds down range, never broke an extractor.
I'll grant the "not as accurate as speed". I won't grant the "not as accurate". I'm sure the SA trigger of the P7 makes it easier to shoot accurately. But if you put them both in a rest, I'd be surprised if there was much difference.
Agreed, but this is the same as the "not as accurate at speed" argument.
Not an issue to me.
Lefties might care about an ambi mag release, but as a righty, that's a non-issue. As for mags might not drop free, sorry, but I won't give you that. The mags on my K9, K40, and MK9 drop free every time. The speed of mag ejection has never been a controlling factor in fast reloads for me. I punch the button as my left leaves the gun and by the time my left hand is back with the new magazine, the old magazine is long gone. And the K9, K40, and MK9 mags come out plenty fast.
Have you seen the K9 Elite? Probably still not as nice a finish, but it's much nicer than a base K9.
This is an issue for me. When I go to the range, I typically put 200+ rounds through my gun in an hour or two.
So I'll give you 1) better trigger and 2) nicer finish.
So they use a different operational principle. So what? They are both single-stack 9mm pistols meant for defensive purposes. That is, neither of them is intended as a purely target pistol (e.g., Hammerli, Pardini, etc.). The purpose they are meant for is identical. The main difference, IMNSHO, is that one is very expensive, very rare, has a better trigger, and has that uber-tactical, sophisticated cachet. But they fill exactly the same purpose.
We can (and have) argued about how well they fill it, but I don't agree that this is an apples to oranges comparison. For example, comparing a Corvette convertible to a Ford F350 is an apples to oranges comparison because they are meant for widely different purposes. Comparing a Corvette convertible to a Porsche cabrio is not, even though one has two seats and the engine in front, while the other has 2+2 seats and the engine in back -- both fill the same purpose.
Or look at it this way, comparing a custom 1911 to a Glock 21 is, in my opinion, just as valid a comparison.
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Thanks, I think we're both trying to keep it that way.
I will grant that the HK P7 is a very unique and interesting design. If it wasn't so darn expensive, I might have gotten one just for grins, cause it is cool.
DR said:
You're a wise man
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
- Joined
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Chipperman said:So you bemoan the lack of availability for these mags, then complain when someone gives you a link to some but they are not cheap enough?
Yes, better deals can be had. But they are not easy to find. This person has them RIGHT NOW, for less than a lot of people are charging.
Sorry don't mean to be ungrateful about your suggestion on where to get mags. I just find it hard personally to justifying laying out that kind of money for more mags. Like anyone else, I keep my eyes open to see if I can "steal" a mag for dirt money, but long ago I realized that I don't really need more mags for this gun as I'm not about to carry it and two mags is no real handicap at the range.
H&K chose to price their mags as they wished (high) and we each have a choice on how we will react to that.
M1911 said:
So you don't think a 9mm that throws casings 30 feet is anything
short of amazing?
<tic>This is one of those things, that, as chinsy as it sounds.... "It's a P7 thing,
If you don't own one, you wouldn't understand." Now were getting into
(mostly) purely subjective issues involving personal bias. I'm not going
to get into the minutae, as most of this has all been done before (Anyone
who's been to the PCT Cult forums knows about the arguments that
go on there.... And I'll be the first one to say that the P7 is not
perfect, either, it's just different. Most P7 owners know and
understand this, and will readily admit its faults which aren't a whole lot
different than any other gun's.
Let's just put it this way... if I was hard up for cash and had a K9 and a
P7... . I'd sell the K9 first, because, well, it's just another handgun. A P7
is "unique". There's a reason there are people stumbling around who
are pissed at themselves cause they sold theirs. Every time I've had
an inkling to sell mine, I just bring it out to the range and shoot it
for awhile, and realize what a stupid idea that would be.
A lot of this is subjective- my means for comparing handguns has a
bigger level of stratification than most people. I personlly, would not
compare a Glock to a 1911 anything. And I say this, being a person that
owns 4 Glocks and 4 1911s, and a bunch of other different
handguns. Will I trust my life to a Glock? Sure. Lately all I carry is a
Glock 19, when I can carry. Is a Glock in the same "class" of gun that a
-good- 1911 is? Hell no. Both may get you to the same "place"
more or less, but they're definitely NOT the same gun.
If we're using a gross classification, as in "guns that can be used for
personal defense" then theres about a bazillion guns that would
"work" to fulfill that purpouse. Any further segregation beyond that
is mostly personal taste, and personal wants and needs.
I guess a good point would be that some of us are like "watch
collectors". If all we cared about was how it keeps time, then our
collection would have like one watch in it, and that'd be the end
of it. How fun is that? If one looks at a gun for defense in
strictly pragmatic terms, they sure as hell won't be buying a P7. (And
possibly dozens of other guns that we haven't mentioned in the
thread..... )
-Mike
LenS said:
Some of it is relativistic, too. If you've ever had to find mags for a Sig P210, $50-60
seems downright affordable in comparison. P210 mags, when you can find them, are
$100+ easy. And that's for a single stack mag thats similar to the P7's!
While having two isn't bad, it doesn't feel right to have a handgun with anything less than about
4 or so. That's pretty much my minimum these days.
-Mike
Chipperman said:
Well, that isnt too bad. Blowing through even 32 rounds on a P7 quickly
will leave the gun pretty hot. The little piece of plastic inside the
trigger guard does very little to stop the transfer of heat, because eventually
it too gets uncomfortably hot.
I used my P7M8 for steel plate matches, but that kind of thing is never
anymore than about 6-12 rounds a match, and theres a long time for
cooldown, so the gun barely breaks a sweat.
-Mike
I can certainly feel the heat on my hip when I reholster. ![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
It doesn't stop me from using though. My point is that you can shoot the bejeebers out of them. Many people have the unfortunate misconception that they will get too hot to shoot after a couple of mags.
I feel about the same way. I have a couple of handguns with only one mag, but most have at least 4-5. Carry guns must have at least 5-6 mags. (No, I don't carry that many all at once)
It doesn't stop me from using though. My point is that you can shoot the bejeebers out of them. Many people have the unfortunate misconception that they will get too hot to shoot after a couple of mags.
I feel about the same way. I have a couple of handguns with only one mag, but most have at least 4-5. Carry guns must have at least 5-6 mags. (No, I don't carry that many all at once)
I carry the p7, I've tried to find a smaller, lighter,less expensive 9. After many tries, I always came back to the p7. all were compared to it and IMHO none could beat it. I agree it does get hot, but it's not the only gun I bring to the range. I practice with it as it is my carry, but for fun and comp. i shoot 22s and 45s
to be fair I never had the chance to shoot a Kahr. I'm sure it's nice. After spending the dough on a p7 I feel "quality has no regrets "
to be fair I never had the chance to shoot a Kahr. I'm sure it's nice. After spending the dough on a p7 I feel "quality has no regrets "
Although I've never shot a P7, I suspect the Kahr's trigger won't be as nice. It is a long trigger pull, but very smooth. Think of it like the smoothest DA revolver pull you've ever tried. It does stack a bit towards the end. Total weight is probably around 6 lbs or so. I prefer the Kahr Elite trigger (Kahr has two triggers, standard and elite -- the elite trigger has 1/4" less movement) over the standard 5-6 lb Glock trigger. It doesn't have the creepy, mushy Glock feel with the sproing at the end. I do prefer the Glock trigger with the 3.5 lb connector, but I'm not sure that's a great option for carry purposes.
The Kahr trigger also has a longer reset than the Glock trigger, so combine that with the long pull and it is slower to shoot accurately.
