From John Farnam of Defense Training International . . .
Regards
John
Regards
John
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Hollowpoint Bullets and Clothing
- Thread starter Optimistic Paranoid
- Start date
I think it was Tony D that said there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of difference between the major (not in the IPSC sense) handgun calibers. He's right. No expanding bullet can be said to be reliable 100 percent of the time. There are simply too many variables.
I think it was Clint Smith who said "Never bring a handgun to a gunfight" and that the ideal caliber was "a telephone pole traveling 10,000 mph".
The choice of a personal defense load and caliber has to be seriously weighed. Arguably, the larger the wound a bullet makes without having to expand, favors the .45 crowd except that hardball according to Ayoob and Marshall has a stopping effectiveness that hovers between 55 and 60 percent.
(stopping defined as a one shot wound that incapacitates or otherwise neutralizes the threat).
All handgun calibers have their limitations. I suppose that the new .500 S&W might be an exception, but there are other issues such as size, weight and controllability that have to be factored in.
Mark
I think it was Clint Smith who said "Never bring a handgun to a gunfight" and that the ideal caliber was "a telephone pole traveling 10,000 mph".
The choice of a personal defense load and caliber has to be seriously weighed. Arguably, the larger the wound a bullet makes without having to expand, favors the .45 crowd except that hardball according to Ayoob and Marshall has a stopping effectiveness that hovers between 55 and 60 percent.
(stopping defined as a one shot wound that incapacitates or otherwise neutralizes the threat).
All handgun calibers have their limitations. I suppose that the new .500 S&W might be an exception, but there are other issues such as size, weight and controllability that have to be factored in.
Mark
I wonder if they also tried the Federal EFMJ (I think that's the bullet) which has a full "profile".
edited to add link:
http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=7
edited to add link:
http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=7
Chris
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And, lets not forget that while the 4 layers of denim may have stopped expansion, it didn't stop the bullet. That's why we carry guns with more rounds.
Anything worth shooting once is worth shoting twice.
You shoot until the threat is stopped. This is why 41 shots in a doorway was justified in a certain NYC shooting.
Don't get hung up on the performance of the bullet, learn to make good shots and buy reliable commercial self-defense ammo.
And a suitably customized .500 Magnum could be a great carry gun...
Here is John Ross' CCW .500.
Anything worth shooting once is worth shoting twice.
You shoot until the threat is stopped. This is why 41 shots in a doorway was justified in a certain NYC shooting.
Don't get hung up on the performance of the bullet, learn to make good shots and buy reliable commercial self-defense ammo.
And a suitably customized .500 Magnum could be a great carry gun...
Here is John Ross' CCW .500.
Box-o-truth handle this question
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm
Looks like clothing plugs the cavity of JHP ammo and thus prvents expantion.
But Chris is right, what's worth being shot once is worth being shot twice.
I dunno about the legality of the .500 carry gun....but if it's a gun you're comphortable with carrying and shooting, better to be judge by 12 than carried by 6.
-Weer'd Beard
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm
Looks like clothing plugs the cavity of JHP ammo and thus prvents expantion.
But Chris is right, what's worth being shot once is worth being shot twice.
I dunno about the legality of the .500 carry gun....but if it's a gun you're comphortable with carrying and shooting, better to be judge by 12 than carried by 6.
-Weer'd Beard
If's it's a legal firearm, there should be no problem with the "legality".
The problem is the perception that the prosecutor might try get the jury to believe. Perhaps paint it as an evil gun designed to produce maximum pain and suffering in your "innocent" victim. That is what I would be concerned with.
I did not say "illegal". Just thinking that the uninformed public (jury) MAY view such a piece in an unfavorable light. I'm sure it will stop the perp but at what cost in court? I can jst picture a prosecutor describing the 500 as a "big game hunting gun", a not inaccurate description. I'll stick to carrying my .40. Better to use what the good guys (cops) use than to deal with another unneeded issue in court. Let's hope none of us ever have to deal with this issue anyway...
USMA-82
NES Member
If you take one of Michael DeBethancourt's knife defense courses, he'll make a similar argument about knives.
Most folks with "defensive" folding knives have these big, black, hulking things with serrated blades and a overall "Rambo" look to them. But if you ask to see Michael's carry knife (and this man KNOWS knife fighting), he'll show you a little pink Spyderco Delica with a 3" blade. He'll tell you that if you train long enough and learn to use it, this knife is all you need.
But, why does he carry the Spyderco instead of the tactical SOG or other high-speed, ass-kicking combat knife? Well, he says if you someday are forced to defend yourself with a knife as a last resort, and end up killing or seriously maiming someone, you'll end up in court with the prosecutor holding up the weapon you used in the attack.
You want the jury to see a little pink knife....
KK
By the way, here's Michael's website:
http://www.northeasterntacticalschools.com/
Most folks with "defensive" folding knives have these big, black, hulking things with serrated blades and a overall "Rambo" look to them. But if you ask to see Michael's carry knife (and this man KNOWS knife fighting), he'll show you a little pink Spyderco Delica with a 3" blade. He'll tell you that if you train long enough and learn to use it, this knife is all you need.
But, why does he carry the Spyderco instead of the tactical SOG or other high-speed, ass-kicking combat knife? Well, he says if you someday are forced to defend yourself with a knife as a last resort, and end up killing or seriously maiming someone, you'll end up in court with the prosecutor holding up the weapon you used in the attack.
You want the jury to see a little pink knife....
KK
By the way, here's Michael's website:
http://www.northeasterntacticalschools.com/
My point exactly USMA-82 !!! (And the knife analogy is excellent-- I'd rather have the Prosecutor holding up a Spiderco POLICE model than a "Deathbringer 2000") Sometimes too much is just too much.
Chris
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Yea, but just think how intimidated the criminal will be when you whip that monster out of your pants and point the thick business end at him.
(^_^)
Seriously, it IS way overkill. *snicker*
Besides, it is still a HUGE gun to carry on your person, you only have 5 shots, and there is no spedloader for it (yet)
Then again...
Think of how fast you could retreat. Just jump straight up in the air and fire. As Hollywood would tell us, you'd be propelled a whole county away. (^_^)
Then again, have you seen the Barnes-X Hollowpoint that Cor-Bon is loading into the .500 Magnum? no measly 4 layers of denim would plug that gaping maw.
Then again, those wood grips would hurt like hell - the stock Hogue 'Sorbathane' grips produce quite a kick as it is.
Then again, the criminal would be so pre-ocupied with the load he just dumped into his pants to present any real threat, so you probably won't have to actually fire the gun.
So, anyway, there was this one time at Band Camp..... (^_^)
(^_^)
Seriously, it IS way overkill. *snicker*
Besides, it is still a HUGE gun to carry on your person, you only have 5 shots, and there is no spedloader for it (yet)
Then again...
Think of how fast you could retreat. Just jump straight up in the air and fire. As Hollywood would tell us, you'd be propelled a whole county away. (^_^)
Then again, have you seen the Barnes-X Hollowpoint that Cor-Bon is loading into the .500 Magnum? no measly 4 layers of denim would plug that gaping maw.
Then again, those wood grips would hurt like hell - the stock Hogue 'Sorbathane' grips produce quite a kick as it is.
Then again, the criminal would be so pre-ocupied with the load he just dumped into his pants to present any real threat, so you probably won't have to actually fire the gun.
So, anyway, there was this one time at Band Camp..... (^_^)
USMA-82
NES Member
Chris -
Seriously now...
God forbid you ever find yourself in a situation where you are threatened with great bodily harm or death and have to defend yourself.
But if that day comes, and you go to court...
Get to this forum and DELETE YOUR AVATAR, QUICK!
Otherwise, they'll lock you up and throw away the key...
KK
Seriously now...
God forbid you ever find yourself in a situation where you are threatened with great bodily harm or death and have to defend yourself.
But if that day comes, and you go to court...
Get to this forum and DELETE YOUR AVATAR, QUICK!
Otherwise, they'll lock you up and throw away the key...
KK
KK,
This Saturday I'll be discussing the possibility of Michael deBethencourt putting some training together for NES members sometime late Spring-Summer.
No promises on this, as he is extremely busy until April. Then hopefully he'll be joining us here on the forum as well.
This Saturday I'll be discussing the possibility of Michael deBethencourt putting some training together for NES members sometime late Spring-Summer.
No promises on this, as he is extremely busy until April. Then hopefully he'll be joining us here on the forum as well.
USMA-82 said:
Somehow, I think that they locked him up and threw away the key years ago . . . but somehow he escaped! Just look at that face and tell me I'm wrong! [lol] [lol]
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Chris
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I've thought about "what would happen" and I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't do anything after the fact that I wouldn't do before.. The fact of the matter is that the prosecution will dig up all kinds of things and present them out of context. Making an effort to hide things only makes me look like I'm ashamed or worried about something.
Remember what I teach in class about the use of Deadly Force. You risk everything. It is the decision that at that moment, life itself is more important than anything else.
If I've made that decision, the last thing I want to do is then go changing who I am because who I am is all that I'm likely to have.
I hope that I will have people stand by me. I hope that choices I've made in my life will stand on their own as a testiment to my character. I hope that my knowledge and skill are sufficient to carry me through the day. But in the end, if I don't stand my ground and instead make myself into that which I'm not, who does it truly help?
No, I am who I am and if that is the basis of my crucifixtion, then so be it. Men far more noble than I in their convictions have faced their persecution with their head high and I will do the same.
-------------------------------------------
And Len, when they made me, and saw how it turned out, they pulled the mold maker aside and beat the living crap out of him. (^_^)
Remember what I teach in class about the use of Deadly Force. You risk everything. It is the decision that at that moment, life itself is more important than anything else.
If I've made that decision, the last thing I want to do is then go changing who I am because who I am is all that I'm likely to have.
I hope that I will have people stand by me. I hope that choices I've made in my life will stand on their own as a testiment to my character. I hope that my knowledge and skill are sufficient to carry me through the day. But in the end, if I don't stand my ground and instead make myself into that which I'm not, who does it truly help?
No, I am who I am and if that is the basis of my crucifixtion, then so be it. Men far more noble than I in their convictions have faced their persecution with their head high and I will do the same.
-------------------------------------------
And Len, when they made me, and saw how it turned out, they pulled the mold maker aside and beat the living crap out of him. (^_^)
Chris said:
Yes, but with that goofy smile? [lol]
[lol] [lol]
My .40 JHP Talons will do just fine...no need to keep a .500 hand rocket on the hip.
As far as the 500 S&W goes, I look at it the same way I do the 44 Magnum. Way too much recoil, and way too much chance of overpenetrating and striking an innocent bystander behind the guy "who needed shooting".
And every bullet you launch downrange has a lawyer attached to it.
And if you're already carrying something that's coming up 90% + in stopping power, that's as good as it's going to get, and there's no reason to think the more powerful gun is going to do better.
In my never particularly humble opinion.
Regards
John
And every bullet you launch downrange has a lawyer attached to it.
And if you're already carrying something that's coming up 90% + in stopping power, that's as good as it's going to get, and there's no reason to think the more powerful gun is going to do better.
In my never particularly humble opinion.
Regards
John
In the words of Boris "The Blade" from "Snatch" (Great Film Highly recomended)
"Weight is reliabiliy....if it doesn't work you can always hit him with it!"
hehehehhe
I wonder if they make a snubbie barrell for that .600 Nitro! [roll]
Arrrrr
-Weer'd Beard
"Weight is reliabiliy....if it doesn't work you can always hit him with it!"
hehehehhe
I wonder if they make a snubbie barrell for that .600 Nitro! [roll]
Arrrrr
-Weer'd Beard
