I don't even know what to say??

[C-pher]

http://tinyurl.com/cn7ao


As a father, I don't know how someone can use thier child as a shield when they are in a shoot out. It just goes against everything that I feel as a father.

I would do anything to keep my children out of harms way...

But I guess that if you start shooting at police, you not thinking right to begin with.

 

[Moderator]

In my opinion, the father was sick and would have killed his daughter anyways. The police did what they had to do to make sure the safety of the rest of the public was not in danger. It’s always a tough decision weather or not to return fire, but as history tells us this isn’t the first time it has happened and I can guarantee you it wont be the last. GOD BLESS HER SOUL

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not enough info to make an intelligent statement on whether the police did the right thing or not here.

If a SWAT team was "in place" (as opposed to called, but not there yet) and the police could contain him and keep out of harm's way until a sniper could set up a head shot, that would have been the preferred action. Then only one person is down and it is the perp.

If, however it all went down too fast and the police couldn't get behind adequate cover and/or contain him without shooting at him, it may well have been the misfortune of the day and unavoidable.

I'll guarantee you though that if the police fired 300 shots, less than 10 made their mark! Panic situations lead to very inaccurate shooting and who knows where all the extra rounds end up! As our trainers told us, in a high stress situation you will shoot like you trained . . . and most don't train very well and certainly not under stress! In Randy Cain's class he tricked us into a high stress situation and most of us (myself included) "made it up" instead of doing what he had told us before the event happened! He made his point in spades.

And regarding using your own kid as a human shield! This person was NOT a "Father", just a sperm donor! Plenty of people contribute to the increase of population (often times just to increase the size of their welfare check), without really being "Parents" (and the responsibility of being one)! Responsible people can never find any logic in this behavior, since there is NO logic to these people.

Sad!

 

[C-pher]

Then only info we have Len, is that the article said that he shot at the police before Swat got there...or so I'm reading.

"Police called in a SWAT team and tried to talk to the man"

That's hard to say whether the SWAT team was trying to talk, or the police.

But I'm guessing that he was able to hit one officer, and I'm guessing that that's why they shot back.

But like you said, we're just guessing.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Right, and that is why I'm not passing judgment on what happened.

I also do NOT trust the media to tell the story straight, not under any circumstances!

 

[Admin]

Right, and that is why I'm not passing judgment on what happened.

I also do NOT trust the media to tell the story straight, not under any circumstances!

I agree. Melody and I were discussing this last night. It is absolutely horrible. Even though the LAPD gets a bad rap all the time for overzealous shoot outs, I honestly doubt any one of those officers would be reckless with the weapon pointed at a guy holding a toddler. The last thing anyone of those guys wanted to do would be to end the girls life. The coroner still has to determine if she died from a LEO's weapon or her fathers weapon.

I'm sure all steps were taken to prevent the little girl from being shot. But the shit probably hit the fan once the bullets start flying. My thoughts are with the little girl's mother.

 

[TonyD]

Like Len said, it's difficult to make reasonable assumption with the given info. However, (you knew that was coming) it appears it lasted 3 hours and at least three different exchanges of gunfire and it still doesn't mention the circumstances behind the culmination. 300 rounds total, or 300 in the last exchange? Who was involved in the last exchange? 3 hours is certainly time enough with the resources of LAPD to have a negotiator and a team on-scene.

 

[dvl]

The SWAT team must have been pretty far away if they needed more than three hours to set up.

 

[Admin]

The SWAT team must have been pretty far away if they needed more than three hours to set up.

I wish we had more info than what a few LAPD hating reporters put out. There has to be video of it. They have every damn car chase live there.

 

[Admin]

Good article. Appears to be unbiased.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-shooting12jul12,0,941709.story?coll=la-home-headlines

 

[Nickle]

I looked at that.

Fire the LEO's involved. They were wrong, no two ways about it.

 

[Admin]

I looked at that.

Fire the LEO's involved. They were wrong, no two ways about it.

I'm sure they were following orders by the time they stormed the dealership.

 

[Lynne]

Those poor guys - they must feel absolutely horrible.

 

[Admin]

Those poor guys - they must feel absolutely horrible.

I hope the investigation shows that the father ended her life. I think it would make it easier for everyone to swallow.

 

[Nickle]

I'm sure they were following orders by the time they stormed the dealership.

"I was just following orders." That excuse didn't work for the Nazi's, and shouldn't work for the LAPD either.

They should be fired for:

1. Causing the death of the girl (they could have and SHOULD have used a sniper).

2. Being such poor shooters that it required an OBSCENE amount of ammo.

I would hope the officers feel remorse, but IF they do, they should've thought the situation through before letting it get out of hand.

And I have little faith in their feeling remorse. It is LA.

 

[Admin]

I think before jumping to conclusions we need to let the investigation be completed. They may have not shot the girl. I think you are wrong with the LEO not feeling remorse for the girl. I know quite a few LA LEO are prior service Marines. LAPD recruits a ton from Camp Pendelton.

But what do I know, I only lived there 4 years.

 

[Lynne]

Ofcourse they'd feel remorse. The ONLY people who wouldn't and don't are the A-hole terrorists who blow people up in the name of Allah.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Even from this story and video, nothing that I read/saw shows that the officers did the right or wrong thing here. It leaves many unanswered questions.

- Were all civilians evacuated from the area? [If so and police could duck behind cover, why not wait for a sniper opportunity? If NOT, they had to act quickly to avoid innocents getting hit by random gun fire.]

- Could they have used gas to incapacitate him? I'm not sure from layout shown if they had the opportunity to do this or not.

- It looks like setting up a sniper may not have been as effective as we might want to think. One watching the doorway at each side might have gotten a lucky view of him, but the report of him shooting thru walls randomly says he spent most of his time behind cover where he had the advantage, not the police.

- The claim of 300 rds fired is one thing, but it looks like the perp may have contributed a lot to that total. Again, too soon and too little info to make a good judgment call here.

 

[Nickle]

They may have not shot the girl. I think you are wrong with the LEO not feeling remorse for the girl. I know quite a few LA LEO are prior service Marines. LAPD recruits a ton from Camp Pendelton.

I'm sure the prior military LEOs feel remorse, whether they were involved or not. My remark in that area was more directed to the young officers that are on their "power trips". The prior service LEOs I've met anywhere don't seem to get off on the power.

Whether it was an LEOs round or not that took the girl down, I think her death MAY have been preventable. Only an investigation will tell.

I'll apologize in advance, but it's one of my pet peeves that some LEO's get in long gun battles with perps, firing a lot of ammo, then taking him alive. I usually figure that if the LEO can't shoot well enough to get the job done, fire him.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I usually figure that if the LEO can't shoot well enough to get the job done, fire him.

We wouldn't have more than a few handfuls of cops left in all of MA if we did that!! [roll] [evil]

 

[Admin]

I know they have a history of shootouts with bullets going everywhere. Unfortunately they are not required to be good shots. And I would consider myself a very good pistol shot, that doesnt mean I could hit someone in the head or chest with adrenaline pumping and my heart racing. It's a whole different story on a two way range. I know Ken can attest to that.

But I do think in this particular case the last thing the LAPD wanted was this little girl to die and all the bad media to follow.

 

[KMaurer]

First off, I'm not going to opine as to what the officers should have done because, unlike some people here, I wasn't actually in the middle of it, so I really don't know the real circumstances. I will, however, note one detail about the reports and express a couple of opinions.

First, the articles say that the family "disputed many details of the police account, arguing that the situation could have been resolved peacefully." Nowhere, however is there indication of what details (if any) they actually dispute. Arguing that things could been resolved better is only an opinion, probably based more on emotions than facts. I don't know the real situation, and I doubt they do either, since I'm sure that LAPD didn't let them into the middle of the party.

As to the opinions, first, it's my experience based on living in LA for 15 years that LAPD has a tendency to escalate their use of force much quicker than other big city departments, which sometimes produces questionable results. If they'd been running the Waco standoff, the tanks likely would have gone in using their main guns by the second day. The other one is that I expect that some of the officers involved are taking this even harder than the mother. At least she can vent by blaming them, which is why the families almost always start off blaming the cops.

(Opinions are like arm pits. Everybody has one or two, and a lot of them stink.)

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

I can't imagine any LEO, young or old, ex-mil or not, who wouldn't feel like crap when a young child dies in a fire-fight!

Even the young, brash cops aren't Robo-Cop, they still have feelings and children pull at the heart-strings of anyone who isn't under the influence of drugs/alcohol or a sociopath!

 

[Nickle]

Ken, I see you have an opinion of the LAPD not much different than mine.

I'm not saying the incident could've been resolved "peaceably". I just think they MIGHT have handled a hostage situation differently. And I have no empathy for the suspect, especially on that takes a child hostage.

LAPD's reputation over the last 20 to 30 years hasn't been a good one. If the incident had happened on the East Coast, I'd be far more likely to give the LEOs the benefit of the doubt.

 

[TonyD]

No one here has enough information to make any assumption of the situation at all.

As a former member of a hostage rescue team I will tell you this. The last thing you want to do is assault a position like that with that type of hostage. However, there are reasons that would require it. We don't have the intel.

 

[Nickle]

As a former member of a hostage rescue team I will tell you this. The last thing you want to do is assault a position like that with that type of hostage. However, there are reasons that would require it. We don't have the intel.

That's what I was thinking when I made my opinion.

 

[Len-2A Training]

They should be fired for:

1. Causing the death of the girl (they could have and SHOULD have used a sniper).

2. Being such poor shooters that it required an OBSCENE amount of ammo.

I would hope the officers feel remorse, but IF they do, they should've thought the situation through before letting it get out of hand.

And I have little faith in their feeling remorse. It is LA.

Nickle, color me confused! :?

How does the above track with your last statement?

As a former member of a hostage rescue team I will tell you this. The last thing you want to do is assault a position like that with that type of hostage. However, there are reasons that would require it. We don't have the intel.

That's what I was thinking when I made my opinion.

These statements appear to be at odds with each other unless I'm missing something here.

 

[Nickle]

Are you confused that I thought it was wrong how the LAPD handled the situation?

That I thought it was wrong that they stormed the suspect?

That I thought it was wrong to get in a prolonged shootout with a suspect that has a hostage?

All are considered by some to be the wrong way to deal with a hostage taker that has a child for his hostage.

Or are you confused because I thought they'd been better off getting a sniper and shooting the suspect in the head? (Which I didn't fully mention)

Or are you confused with my opinion that the LAPD doesn't have a good reputation?

I don't think Tony and I are of that much different opinion. I'd like to see what the investigation turns up.

 

[TonyD]

We are of a different opinion. You're making assumptions of the situation then hedging by a disclaimer to wait for the investigation.

I'm making no assumptions because I don't have the details. If you re-read my post you'll find that I stated there are reasons which would necessitate and immediate / hasty assault. Again, we don't know if it was necessary or they were overzelous. You cannot condemn them when you don't have the facts.

Everything you stated happens in the perfect world, and it rarely exists.

 

[Nickle]

Tony, I was referring to your comment about storming the position being generally wrong, nothing more. I'll also agree that sometimes it may be the right thing to do.

I'll agree that I'm usually too hasty to formulate an opinion on matters like this.

I apologize to anyone that gets offended by my opinion that some LEOs are too overzealous. I think the overzealous LEOs give the good ones a bad name sometimes.

I believe that the overzealous ones are a very distinct minority, and yes, I've run up against a few in my time that were grossly overzealous.