If overpenetration is not an issue......

MassMark said:
I have had the good fortune to shoot a section of wall from my home after some construction. My house was built in 1750, and as such, has no drywall, except the basement. I was surprised by how heavy the 3'x3' section of wall was and by how much effort it took to get buckshot to penetrate it...I have it on video somewhere and should see if I can dig it up and download it to my computer. It was pretty interesting...I would think modern drywall construction would certainly lead to one being more concerned with round penetration....
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Horsehair plaster and the lathe it lives on are a good sight stronger than drywall, I'd guess. I second wanting to see the video!

The schmo who owned this house before me saw fit to drywall OVER some of the original (~1900) plaster.. Wonder what the Box O' Truth would have to say about that? [grin]
 
FreeWillie said:
Are you kidding? the wife pisses and moans every time I bring a new gun into the house. The good part is she doesn't have to feed them. If I bring you in she'll have to feed you. Do you have any idea what kind of hell I will have to go through then? Do you hate me?
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Wait a minute, your wife cooks?
ETA sorry, I'll stop highjacking the thread.
 
FreeWillie said:
Collateral damage? I don't live in a condo. I have a home on 22 acres of land.
Click to expand...

How very wonderful for you.

The nearest neighbor is 1000 yards away! Stop applying your Boston condo rules to me. I can shoot my AR out back in my range and "the neighbors" never know. We don't all live like you.
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News flash: I'm on 4 acres in the 'burbs; not a condo. And I still won't use a slug for HD.

Even putting over-penenetration issues aside, slugs are a poor choice, for reasons EC listed. At HD distances, a shell full of #4 or #6 buck will create the legendary "rat hole wound;" larger than what a slug creates, with the benefit of near, if not total, energy dump in the target. In short, it's more effective.

And all w/o the likelihood of over-penetration. But feel free to fenestrate your walls.....
 
I forgot to mention that not only are there no houses around, my house is 150 yrs old and the interior walls are sheet rock over horse hair plaster and the exterior is 3 layers of cedar shake.
 
Scrivener said:
How very wonderful for you.



News flash: I'm on 4 acres in the 'burbs; not a condo. And I still won't use a slug for HD.

Even putting over-penenetration issues aside, slugs are a poor choice, for reasons EC listed. At HD distances, a shell full of #4 or #6 buck will create the legendary "rat hole wound;" larger than what a slug creates, with the benefit of near, if not total, energy dump in the target. In short, it's more effective.

And all w/o the likelihood of over-penetration. But feel free to fenestrate your walls.....
Click to expand...

You discount the "fear factor" . Rarely are home invasions done by one person. They are usually done in "packs". Scum in groups. So you hose the leader without prejudice and the "hangers" run. I'll go with overwhelming force, you can finesse them on your dime. Good Luck.
 
Scrivener said:
How very wonderful for you.



News flash: I'm on 4 acres in the 'burbs; not a condo. And I still won't use a slug for HD.

Even putting over-penenetration issues aside, slugs are a poor choice, for reasons EC listed. At HD distances, a shell full of #4 or #6 buck will create the legendary "rat hole wound;" larger than what a slug creates, with the benefit of near, if not total, energy dump in the target. In short, it's more effective.

And all w/o the likelihood of over-penetration. But feel free to fenestrate your walls.....
Click to expand...

Never mind you're right. Do what you need to do.
 
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FreeWillie said:
You discount the "fear factor" . Rarely are home invasions done by one person. They are usually done in "packs". Scum in groups. So you hose the leader without prejudice and the "hangers" run. I'll go with overwhelming force, you can finesse them on your dime. Good Luck.
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If this is what you believe, then skip the slug and go with #4 buck (which is hardly 'finesse' BTW).

A slug will make a slug-sized hole going in and coming out; and any energy that's still in that slug when it comes out is wasted. At HD distances, the #4 buck (41 .24" pellets) will likely make a 2-3" diameter hole going in, and God knows what coming out if they do come out.
 
EddieCoyle said:
If this is what you believe, then skip the slug and go with #4 buck (which is hardly 'finesse' BTW).

A slug will make a slug-sized hole going in and coming out; and any energy that's still in that slug when it comes out is wasted. At HD distances, the #4 buck (41 .24" pellets) will likely make a 2-3" diameter hole going in, and God knows what coming out if they do come out.
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"I personally have Royal #4 21 pellet (warning shots) and follow that with Federal 1" rifled slugs. YMMV." - FreeWillie

See we think alike.
 
I clearly stated in post #13 that I preferred #4 as the stating point for HD. I then stated that after that I use slugs. That's a "fear factor" thing. You have to consider how someone is going to react to a hole being blown in the wall or their buddy being visibly disemboweled. Overwhelming force makes most people run and that is what I want in a HD situation. Don't dumb things down. Fear is something we need to use.
 
I know I have been over here too long after reading this. The title of the thread got my mind going in ENTIRELY another direction HaHa
 
I'm using the federal tactical reduced recoil 00 buckshot (I think it's 9 ball?).

I don't like in a condo or have shared walls with anyone. If I did I guess I would think twice about using any kind of load in any kind of firearm. However, in an average neighborhood where the houses are at least 500' apart, I don't think it's reckless to choose buckshot as a home defense load.
 
Mass-diver said:
I'm using the federal tactical reduced recoil 00 buckshot (I think it's 9 ball?).

I don't like in a condo or have shared walls with anyone. If I did I guess I would think twice about using any kind of load in any kind of firearm. However, in an average neighborhood where the houses are at least 500' apart, I don't think it's reckless to choose buckshot as a home defense load.
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I don't disagree with you one bit. you use the force that you deem appropriate for the situation. I load for the worst and reload for the situation.
 
From the Internet:

Because a shotgun shell is really just a shaped charge behind a payload, shotgun shells can be filled with a wide variety of loads, many of which are legal. A California-based company sells many different shells, and has had many different names. Originally known as the Blammo Ammo company, they're currently called Fun Ammo. While most of these shells are legal, they may require an extra hazardous materials charge to ship.

* Avenger: Hollow steel balls with a low gunpowder load. Short range and low recoil, with low penetration. Could be useful in a situation requiring low penetration, such as home defense. Semi-nonlethal.
* Bird Bombs: An explosive payload, which (in theory) detonates on impact. Roughly equivalent to an m80 firecracker.
* Bolo: Two heavy slugs connected by piano wire. Was once known as the garrote slug. While impossible to aim, the wire becomes a very hazardous blade at muzzle velocity.
* Bouncer: Two zytel (nylon) balls. High muzzle velocity, very low penetration. Semi-nonlethal, like rubber bullets.
* Chain reaction: A 6-inch length of chain. Impacts in a rather random pattern.
* Comet: A regular shotgun slug with a red tracer.
* Detonator: Essentially, a hollow lead slug with an explosive tip. It's made with for the purpose of filling with your own explosive or other payload, which then detonates on impact.
* Door buster: Tiny lead pellets, approaching lead dust. Impacts with full force, but over a larger area, with very little penetration.
* Dragon's Breath: Yes, these really do exist, and yes, you can order them for $16.98 each. White phosphorous that ignites upon being shot. Creates a 100-yard flamethrower that burns for about three seconds. Contrary to popular belief, this does not damage a smooth-bore shotgun.
* Fire siren: A small weighted whistle. Incredibly loud at muzzle velocity. Wear ear protection.
* Flash bomb: Like the bird bomb, above, but using a flash-powder incendiary instead of an explosive one.
* Flechette: A whole bunch of needles. High penetration.
* Hammer: A bean-bag round; a nylon bag filled with tiny shot. High impact, but theoretically nonlethal.
* Mini Missile: A solid lead slug with a steel core. The lead slug peels away on impact, driving the core through hard targets (like armor.)
* Napalm: Like the Bird Bomb, above, but filled with white phosphorous, which burns very hot upon impact.
* Pit Bull: Six big lead pelletes, and one big slug. Not that exotic, really.
* Shredder: A lot of sharp tacks. Short range, but high trauma to flesh.
* Smoke bomb: Essentially, the Dragon's Breath Round, only using a smoke powder instead.
* Stinger: 16 zytel (nylon) balls. Essentially, the rubber bullet for shotguns. Semi-nonlethal.
* Super flare: A shotgun-launched flare.
 
I've tested birdshot,buckshot and slugs at 5 yards against sheetrock wall sections. I used a 14" 590a1 AOW and I picked that distance to represent the width of a typical room. What I found was that all worked fine and the birdshot kicked less and allowed better control and faster follow up shots. If a buckshot pellet or slug exits your house, you'll be responsible for where it goes and in this state, you'll be looking at a lot of legal expenses if you're lucky. I'm not telling you to use birdshot but thats what I'd use. I would suggest you do your own test with your home defense shotgun. It's bound to throw a tighter pattern than a 14" AOW.
 
EC,

Have you seen / tested #4 buckshoot against soft bodyarmor? Also, what protection level was the soft-body armor?

I'm a little surprised about the statement that #4 pellets will penetrate softbody armor, but I'm used to working with Level II and IIIA and I've never specifically tested #4.

That being said, I keep my HD shotguns loaded with 15pellet 3" 12ga 00Buck shells. The angles I expect to shoot in a HD senerior will place shot that penetrates an exterior wall into a garage, into a berm or into the ground.
 
ShadeWPI said:
EC,

Have you seen / tested #4 buckshoot against soft bodyarmor? Also, what protection level was the soft-body armor?

I'm a little surprised about the statement that #4 pellets will penetrate softbody armor, but I'm used to working with Level II and IIIA and I've never specifically tested #4.

That being said, I keep my HD shotguns loaded with 15pellet 3" 12ga 00Buck shells. The angles I expect to shoot in a HD senerior will place shot that penetrates an exterior wall into a garage, into a berm or into the ground.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I tried it, and I'm pretty sure it was IIIA. .22 LR will go through it sometimes, #4 buck will go though it (not all the pellets but enough), but most bigger rounds will not (including 7.62x25 and .30 Carbine). One exception was a special .500 round that I made.
 
EddieCoyle said:
Yeah, I tried it, and I'm pretty sure it was IIIA. .22 LR will go through it sometimes, #4 buck will go though it (not all the pellets but enough), but most bigger rounds will not (including 7.62x25 and .30 Carbine). One exception was a special .500 round that I made.
Click to expand...

Saboted tungsten or depleted uranium? [wink]
 
Old Glory said:
From the Internet:

Because a shotgun shell is really just a shaped charge behind a payload, shotgun shells can be filled with a wide variety of loads, many of which are legal. A California-based company sells many different shells, and has had many different names. Originally known as the Blammo Ammo company, they're currently called Fun Ammo. While most of these shells are legal, they may require an extra hazardous materials charge to ship.

* Avenger: Hollow steel balls with a low gunpowder load. Short range and low recoil, with low penetration. Could be useful in a situation requiring low penetration, such as home defense. Semi-nonlethal.
* Bird Bombs: An explosive payload, which (in theory) detonates on impact. Roughly equivalent to an m80 firecracker.
* Bolo: Two heavy slugs connected by piano wire. Was once known as the garrote slug. While impossible to aim, the wire becomes a very hazardous blade at muzzle velocity.
* Bouncer: Two zytel (nylon) balls. High muzzle velocity, very low penetration. Semi-nonlethal, like rubber bullets.
* Chain reaction: A 6-inch length of chain. Impacts in a rather random pattern.
* Comet: A regular shotgun slug with a red tracer.
* Detonator: Essentially, a hollow lead slug with an explosive tip. It's made with for the purpose of filling with your own explosive or other payload, which then detonates on impact.
* Door buster: Tiny lead pellets, approaching lead dust. Impacts with full force, but over a larger area, with very little penetration.
* Dragon's Breath: Yes, these really do exist, and yes, you can order them for $16.98 each. White phosphorous that ignites upon being shot. Creates a 100-yard flamethrower that burns for about three seconds. Contrary to popular belief, this does not damage a smooth-bore shotgun.
* Fire siren: A small weighted whistle. Incredibly loud at muzzle velocity. Wear ear protection.
* Flash bomb: Like the bird bomb, above, but using a flash-powder incendiary instead of an explosive one.
* Flechette: A whole bunch of needles. High penetration.
* Hammer: A bean-bag round; a nylon bag filled with tiny shot. High impact, but theoretically nonlethal.
* Mini Missile: A solid lead slug with a steel core. The lead slug peels away on impact, driving the core through hard targets (like armor.)
* Napalm: Like the Bird Bomb, above, but filled with white phosphorous, which burns very hot upon impact.
* Pit Bull: Six big lead pelletes, and one big slug. Not that exotic, really.
* Shredder: A lot of sharp tacks. Short range, but high trauma to flesh.
* Smoke bomb: Essentially, the Dragon's Breath Round, only using a smoke powder instead.
* Stinger: 16 zytel (nylon) balls. Essentially, the rubber bullet for shotguns. Semi-nonlethal.
* Super flare: A shotgun-launched flare.
Click to expand...

Some of those sound interesting. I don't know if I'd want anything with incendiary properties though. A hole in the wall is one thing but burning down the house seems counter productive. [grin]
 
The "Box O' Truth" guy says something along the lines that if it can't penetrate drywall, it isn't really useful for defensive purposes, or something like that. Go read that site. You can reply back here if I got any details wrong.
 
Coyote33 said:
The "Box O' Truth" guy says something along the lines that if it can't penetrate drywall, it isn't really useful for defensive purposes, or something like that. Go read that site. You can reply back here if I got any details wrong.
Click to expand...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

As you said, just about anything goes through drywall.
 
EddieCoyle said:
If this is what you believe, then skip the slug and go with #4 buck (which is hardly 'finesse' BTW).

A slug will make a slug-sized hole going in and coming out; and any energy that's still in that slug when it comes out is wasted. At HD distances, the #4 buck (41 .24" pellets) will likely make a 2-3" diameter hole going in, and God knows what coming out if they do come out.
Click to expand...

From The Box O' Truth: "In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs." (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)

Why use #4 buck if "tests have shown" it lacks penetration?
 
Shock value! It's a psychological thing. #4 will destroy the bowel area. If the individual insists on attacking after that then a slug to the chest ends the conversation. Having been in the medical business for some 30 years, I do not relish getting a person into ER with a #x buck shot to the bowel. It's pretty icky. It's takes forever to dig out the pellets and they are probably going to bleed to death. Slugs are neat and clean. Just a big hole that I have to close, if I can.
 
I tried , and failed , to avoid this thread. Personally , I think Overpenetration concerns are a bad idea.

A few hours a go I was plinking Winchester 22 LR standard velocity at a fairly stiff gauge of Sheet matal - ( the unused shelf from a " Stack-On gun cabinet ). Backed by an inch and a half thick pressure treated plank.

2 firearms , both Rugers : 22/45 & 10/22.

It surprised me that both the metal and the wood were penetrated and the slugs bried themselves in the tree behind the metal & wood backer.

House wall = 1/2 in. Sheetrock , 3.5 inches of fluffy insulation , 1/2 inch of plywood , 3/8ths inch cedar siding. Vs : steel & 1.5 inches lumber & some depth of tree.

I believe one needs to use .177 cal. to avoid overpenetration. Or another round no one on the internets believes will reliably stop Freddy Cruger. -

I am staying with Plan A : 230 LRN in the 1911 , 00B in my Mossberg , and 55gr fmjbt's in my Bushmaster.
 
FreeWillie said:
Shock value! It's a psychological thing. #4 will destroy the bowel area. If the individual insists on attacking after that then a slug to the chest ends the conversation. Having been in the medical business for some 30 years, I do not relish getting a person into ER with a #x buck shot to the bowel. It's pretty icky. It's takes forever to dig out the pellets and they are probably going to bleed to death. Slugs are neat and clean. Just a big hole that I have to close, if I can.
Click to expand...

FreeWillie to intruders: "You don't understand, I'm not stuck in here with you, you're all stuck in here with me!" [laugh]
 

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