Is it possible to get a non-resident MA CCW?

[GuideStar]

Carrying a handgun in Mass while hunting can be a big problem, depending upon the season and species.

So what is the purpose of a non-Resident restricted Target shooting and Hunting LTC then? Only handgun hunting? Why would you need it for target shooting when MA law already states a non-resident can transport a handgun into the state (cased and locked and unloaded) for the purposes of target shooting and gun shows?

No handguns are allowed while deer hunting. Some species may be lawfully taken with a handgun, but many have caliber/chambering restrictions, or restrictions on types of handguns (e.g. only revolver for black bear). If a season has defined, allowed firearms, DON'T carry a backup that differs. Even during shotgun deer season, you can't have a sidearm.

What about with an unrestricted LTC? In PA with a carry permit, you can conceal carry doing any activity including deer hunting with a long gun. If you use your handgun to shoot a deer that is a game law violation (unless you are specifically handgun hunting with the appropriate pistol).

The NO LTC with hunting license exemption is only for long guns.

You don't need any LTC as a non-resident to bring a legal long gun into the state to hunt or shoot.

If you have a restricted LTC, I'd advise no concealed carry during transport. The restrictions are defined by the issuing authority - for Resident LTCs, the local PD spells out what's kosher, and what's not - the Commonwealth issues Non-Res, and they'd have to tell you.

It clearly states and while "traveling to and from" the range and hunting location etc. Not looking for legal advice just looking to understand.

Being in the woods during hunting season, with a firearm of any description can be construed as "hunting" as "hunting" is broadly defined in Mass. For instance, persons driving a deer (legal) have to have hunting licenses, even if they don't have a gun or bow.

Agree. But I have a valid non-resident hunting license, so I can be in the woods with a long gun.

I was helping a buddy that was a Falconer, by beating brush piles with a ski pole - that required a license (though the EPO I was discussing this with said, "We leave Falconers alone, because they're all crazy")

So the answer is "Maybe?"

IANAL

Sounds fun! I would have the license if I was helping him because I do everything by the book, even though I have yet to encounter an EPO.

 

[GuideStar]

I wuz thinking that.
(I don't think anyone imagines it's a wallhack to the hunting regs).

Not sure what you mean.

The only good part is that if you're caught,
you're "only" charged with some hunting violation -
not Carrying Without A License.

I don't want to be caught with anything, I want to understand the law and comply with it and enjoy the day.

Yeah, ^ that.

And if one asks EOPSS whether a hunting restriction means that
one can concealed carry while driving to/from the happy hunting ground,
one may not like the answer.

I don't care about his or her answer. I just want to be within the bounds of the law and go about my business.

 

[MisterHappy]

So what is the purpose of a non-Resident restricted Target shooting and Hunting LTC then? Only handgun hunting? Why would you need it for target shooting when MA law already states a non-resident can transport a handgun into the state (cased and locked and unloaded) for the purposes of target shooting and gun shows? The "Competition Exemption" does not actually exist - see other threads that address this. Mass laws are FUBAR (In the original sense of the acronym) - don't think that logic will apply.



What about with an unrestricted LTC? In PA with a carry permit, you can conceal carry doing any activity including deer hunting with a long gun. If you use your handgun to shoot a deer that is a game law violation (unless you are specifically handgun hunting with the appropriate pistol). If you have a sidearm on your person while deer hunting (regardless of season) it's likely that an EPO will jack you up. Don't do it. Mass game and hunting laws are complex....very complex.



You don't need any LTC as a non-resident to bring a legal long gun into the state to hunt or shoot. As long as you have a valid hunting license, or are going to a "real" shoot. Going to your buddy's back yard to shoot clays might jam you up - it's a poorly written piece of law



It clearly states and while "traveling to and from" the range and hunting location etc. Not looking for legal advice just looking to understand. If you're carrying on your person, and are pulled over with a restricted permit, you MAY have issues - it all depends on what rules the Issuing Authority apply at time of issuance. Massprudence says don't carry on your person in the car on the way to the range or hunting location, unless the IA says it's OK, preferably in writing.



Agree. But I have a valid non-resident hunting license, so I can be in the woods with a long gun. If you're lawfully hunting. A shottie at 2 AM is a no-go. A rifle during deer season is a no-go.


Sounds fun! I would have the license if I was helping him because I do everything by the book, even though I have yet to encounter an EPO. It was very cold, and only one rabbit was scared up. Seeing a red tail hawk fly through undergrowth like the bird-lizards in Avatar was intense.

Replies in red. IANAL, If you're coming to DRPM for hunting make sure you read and understand the Abstracts. Details like a loaded shotgun leaning against a parked car is "Unlawful Transportation" can catch the unwary.

 

[MisterHappy]

I don't care about his or her answer. I just want to be within the bounds of the law and go about my business. Some of the EPOs are more hard-ass than others - One in a HunterEd Class was asked, "What constitutes a 'Hard Surfaced" road (the regs use that terminology, not, 'Paved'?" - EPO answered, "Well, how will your head feel, when I slam you down on it?" That was the point that AHM was trying to make, I believe - there's interpretation that can go badly, as the laws are poorly written, and the hunting regs often have definitions that vary from the Mass General Laws.

If some of our answers come across as d!ckheadish, that's because the subject warrants it. Remember - in Mass a Firearms ID card does not allow you to carry a Firearm ( Handgun, per MGLs), only long guns, which by definition in MGLs are NOT firearms.

 

[AHM]

Not sure what you mean.

I mean that an LTC whose restrictions include "hunting"
does not negate a hunting law that forbids the carrying of a handgun.
And luckily I don't think anyone here believed such a thing.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If some of our answers come across as d!ckheadish, that's because the subject warrants it. Remember - in Mass a Firearms ID card does not allow you to carry a Firearm ( Handgun, per MGLs), only long guns, which by definition in MGLs are NOT firearms.

Sort of like driving on a parkway and parking on a driveway.

 

[GuideStar]

If some of our answers come across as d!ckheadish, that's because the subject warrants it. Remember - in Mass a Firearms ID card does not allow you to carry a Firearm ( Handgun, per MGLs), only long guns, which by definition in MGLs are NOT firearms.

No problem, I appreciate the time and insight. So the way I understand it, I don't need any MA Firearms ID card or LTC (restricted or otherwise) the bring a legal shotgun into MA (unloaded and locked in a case) to lawfully hunt during legal seasons with a valid non-resident license. In fact I'm sure of it, as no duck hunting outfitter is saying I need that to hunt with them and they've been at it for years and that would curtail out of state hunters and hit the coffers of fish and game commission.

I'm trying to understand what a non-resident restricted LTC allows me to do with a (MA legal) handgun in MA. Specifically what I would like to be able to do is: 1. Drive to my MA house from out of state (with it unloaded and locked away) with peace of mind. 2. To carry while hiking 3. Carry on a boat. 4. Carry while fishing. I understand I don't need it for any of that and the odds of using it super slim etc. etc., but I am interested in knowing what I can legally do if I choose to. (Interested in your take, though before doing any of those activities my best bet might be a consultation with a MA firearms attorney.)

 

[AHM]

I would like to be able to ... Drive to my MA house from out of state

Have you investigated getting a Mass resident LTC?

If your jurisdiction will issue one to a (figurative) snowbird,
it might not even have any restrictions on it.

 

[GuideStar]

Have you investigated getting a Mass resident LTC?

If your jurisdiction will issue one to a (figurative) snowbird,
it might not even have any restrictions on it.

I know someone who did just that, police chief in western MA issued it. I understand it depends on the chief. I'm not a snowbird, though, with a very definite address in a nearby state.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know someone who did just that, police chief in western MA issued it. I understand it depends on the chief. Worth looking into. All they can do is reject it right?

You don't apply. You ask the chief to sit down and discuss it. Based on his/her answer, you either apply or go for a NR LTC thru FRB. This way there is no money lost and no rejection to document everywhere.

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm trying to understand what a non-resident restricted LTC allows me to do with a (MA legal) handgun in MA. Specifically what I would like to be able to do is: 1. Drive to my MA house from out of state (with it unloaded and locked away) with peace of mind. 2. To carry while hiking 3. Carry on a boat. 4. Carry while fishing. I understand I don't need it for any of that and the odds of using it super slim etc. etc., but I am interested in knowing what I can legally do if I choose to. (Interested in your take, though before doing any of those activities my best bet might be a consultation with a MA firearms attorney.)

What you're allowed to do, will be based on what restriction(s), if any are placed upon it at time of issuance. The Issuing Authority wil tell you what, and what's not, permitted. Sorry for the non-answer. You SHOULD be OK to carry while hiking, but any action(s) that could be construed as "hunting" might get a grumpy EPO's ire up.

If you have a "hunting" restriction, the hiking, boating, fishing stuff is probably a no-go; "Sporting" should cover you, as far as any detailed prohibitions as I noted above.

Fun, huh?

 

[Texasgrillchef]

@Texasgrillchef

are you any type of instructor? That is a way a lot of people get a unrestricted non resident.
When I leave here I will be using this since most my family is here and I’ll be in MA a lot.

NRA Instructor, Illinois LTC instructor and Maryland LTC instructor. Waiting on my Texas DPS LTC class to teach TX LTC but they are backlogged. I am also a 06 and 03 FFL

 

[Texasgrillchef]

wonder how the op made out acquiring all those ltc's? he's going to need one gigantic wallet to tote them all around.

Depends on what state your referring too.
Arizona, Virginia, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Maine I just filled out the app, gave them their money and sent them my NRA Instructor certification. Illinois, Texas and Utah required a state specific class. Illinois and washington required a trip their state first. Illinois To take the class, but applied online. Washington trip to apply. NRA cert was good.

However now that I am an Illinois LTC instructor I am Not required to go back for any additional training or for renewals of either the LTC or the Instructor cert.

I will have to make a trip to Utah To obtain my Utah Instructor cert. But I go o Moab yearly for an Off-Roading 4x4 event every year with my Bronco, and Xterra.

Washington will require a trip back to renew, but I will just do that when I go up there for a kayaking event. Since one can renew up to 180 days in advance, in any county. (Non-resident)

The rest of the states can be renewed online, or through the mail.

Florida was an issue, because fingerprints were required to be taken by law enforcement. I had to wait till Texas lifted Covid restrictions to get my Florida LTC. However it was done online and fingerprints mailed in. Renewal won’t require fingerprints.

 

[drgrant]

@Texasgrillchef the gun show/competition exemption is worthless due to being poorly written. it also doesn’t cover certain things (like large cap guns) even if it wasn’t worthless.

The main thing the nonres restricted LTC does is to keep someone from eating an “easy bake oven felony”. Even if you ignore the restrictions its far better situation than not having the coverage at all.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

@Texasgrillchef the gun show/competition exemption is worthless due to being poorly written. it also doesn’t cover certain things (like large cap guns) even if it wasn’t worthless.

The main thing the nonres restricted LTC does is to keep someone from eating an “easy bake oven felony”. Even if you ignore the restrictions its far better situation than not having the coverage at all.

I might just wait for the NY SCOTUS ruling and see how hat changes some things too.

 

[drgrant]

I might just wait for the NY SCOTUS ruling and see how hat changes some things too.

Lol, you will be waiting a decade. If you apply and crapflood them with training certs and maybe a swan song 5 page letter they won’t restrict you. Basically you have to send them “proof that you’re going to annoy the living shit out of them”. if you get restricted, and they will roll at that point.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Here is an interesting clause below. If I am to read that correctly, and I admit the odds that I am not are greater then the odds that I am.

I read that section as saying that If I am from Texas, and have a Texas LTC, and if Texas doesn’t give an LTC who is a convicted felon or drug crimes, (which Texas doesn’t) AND that if I am traveling in or through for either the purpose of hunting (and have a hunting license for MA or my Destination), I am a resident of the United states, or going to a competition, or exhibition or meeting of firearms collectors. That I may carry a pistol or revolver.

I don’t see anywhere it says I have to have a MA LTC.

I also dont see where in the law it defines a meeting or exhibition either. Which makes me wonder. If I am a traveling instructor, and I have a class. What’s to say that’s not a meeting, or even a meeting of firearms collectors. Does one have to have a 03 FFL to be considered a collector? I have one. but does one have too?

I will check with a MA lawyer to see what they say.

Section 131G: Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions​

Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Lol, you will be waiting a decade. If you apply and crapflood them with training certs and maybe a swan song 5 page letter they won’t restrict you. Basically you have to send them “proof that you’re going to annoy the living shit out of them”. if you get restricted, and they will roll at that point.

wonder why you say a decade? Opinion shod be released by June 2022, unless your referring to the litigation that might have to be filed to force the issue with Ma. I don’t see it taking 10 years though. Didn’t take till 2018 For people to have firearms in the home from the 2008 Heller Opinion.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Here is an interesting clause below. If I am to read that correctly, and I admit the odds that I am not are greater then the odds that I am.

I read that section as saying that If I am from Texas, and have a Texas LTC, and if Texas doesn’t give an LTC who is a convicted felon or drug crimes, (which Texas doesn’t) AND that if I am traveling in or through for either the purpose of hunting (and have a hunting license for MA or my Destination), I am a resident of the United states, or going to a competition, or exhibition or meeting of firearms collectors. That I may carry a pistol or revolver.

I don’t see anywhere it says I have to have a MA LTC.

I also dont see where in the law it defines a meeting or exhibition either. Which makes me wonder. If I am a traveling instructor, and I have a class. What’s to say that’s not a meeting, or even a meeting of firearms collectors. Does one have to have a 03 FFL to be considered a collector? I have one. but does one have too?

I will check with a MA lawyer to see what they say.

Section 131G: Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions​

Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.

They will tell you they don't know for sure. There are some who claim there is no state who will not give a license to certain drug convicts (like someone with a decades old MJ conviction). The exemption law is ambiguously worded - no specific on restricted or not, no time window around the event, no precise definition of event, etc

A non-resident LTC is much more likely to protect you from legal fees than a claim that you were in town to teach a class when you are found to be carrying in a place and manner completely unrelated for the event or match. Remember, the law may (hopefully) determine if you are convicted, but the cops decide if you will hear those three magic words "My retainer is".

 

[daekken]

I read that section as saying that If I am from Texas, and have a Texas LTC, and if Texas doesn’t give an LTC who is a convicted felon or drug crimes, (which Texas doesn’t)

I'm certainly not an expert on Texas law, but some brief Googling implies MJ possession is a misdemeanor in TX, and that after 5 years people convicted of misdemeanors can apply for carry licenses in Texas, in which case they would not meet the MA requirement, presumably.

The general consensus has been that no states meet MA's requirement, and that this has been what has been being taught to law enforcement. This circles back to @drgrant 's comments that a non-res LTC is effectively neccessary.

 

[drgrant]

I'm certainly not an expert on Texas law, but some brief Googling implies MJ possession is a misdemeanor in TX, and that after 5 years people convicted of misdemeanors can apply for carry licenses in Texas, in which case they would not meet the MA requirement, presumably.

The general consensus has been that no states meet MA's requirement, and that this has been what has been being taught to law enforcement. This circles back to @drgrant 's comments that a non-res LTC is effectively neccessary.

FWIW there are tons of people that still lean on the comp exemption and nobody gets in trouble for it- but IMHO this is more of a matter of people keeping their heads down and nose
clean. Even if we believe the fairytale that the comp exemption works, it still sucks. It pretty much covers "that one activity and transit to and from it to the border" . It's not going to cover "going plinking with your friend joe in rural MA when you visit from out of town" or whatever.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm certainly not an expert on Texas law, but some brief Googling implies MJ possession is a misdemeanor in TX, and that after 5 years people convicted of misdemeanors can apply for carry licenses in Texas, in which case they would not meet the MA requirement, presumably.

True, but it would be an interesting thing to defend since the federal court rules against denying MA LTC's due to a minor MJ conviction.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

FWIW there are tons of people that still lean on the comp exemption and nobody gets in trouble for it- but IMHO this is more of a matter of people keeping their heads down and nose
clean. Even if we believe the fairytale that the comp exemption works, it still sucks. It pretty much covers "that one activity and transit to and from it to the border" . It's not going to cover "going plinking with your friend joe in rural MA when you visit from out of town" or whatever.

This falls into the "generally assumed to be case" category but is not codified in law, or as far as I can tell, court precedent.

 

[drgrant]

This falls into the "generally assumed to be case" category but is not codified in law, or as far as I can tell, court precedent.

I've never even seen or heard of an incident where someone used it as a "defense" so who knows how that would actually work.

The law is pretty clear on the latter part of my statement though, it's obvious it was only designed to cover that "competition or hunting" activity and nothing else.

But I'm sure it will be tested. Right after that tube fed shotgun thing we were talking about the other day. AKA, when hell freezes over.

I don't think it's too much of a coincidence that most of the unlawful possession cases in MA involve "unsecured guns floating around loose in someones car, usually inside the passenger compartment" that seems to be a recurring theme, at least. It would appear to a layperson that if you can be "something other than that" then your odds of going unnoticed go up
dramatically.

 

[daekken]

But I'm sure it will be tested. Right after that tube fed shotgun thing we were talking about the other day. AKA, when hell freezes over.

Benelli already solved that over the phone.

 

[AHM]

... it would be an interesting thing to defend since the federal court rules against denying MA LTC's due to a minor MJ conviction.

You think Mass courts aren't capable of ruling that
despite residents' privilege of legally smoking
the occasional bone for their incipient glaucasthmaratubercubosis,
that non-residents have to stay sober?

You know;
courts in the same Mass government who says that
non-res LTC holders can possess and carry
guns'n'ammo, but can't buy them...

---

Can you imagine getting a seat on the First Circuit court of appeals -
the peak of your profession, the zenith of your legal powers -
and then in the immediate wake of Heller and McDonald
you see Mass tell Jaime Caetano to pound sand, because
"your case is only supported by SCOTUS and we're the SJC!".

Spoiler: Artist's conception

 

[Texasgrillchef]

FWIW there are tons of people that still lean on the comp exemption and nobody gets in trouble for it- but IMHO this is more of a matter of people keeping their heads down and nose
clean. Even if we believe the fairytale that the comp exemption works, it still sucks. It pretty much covers "that one activity and transit to and from it to the border" . It's not going to cover "going plinking with your friend joe in rural MA when you visit from out of town" or whatever.

That’s the thing about any action that isn’t clearly spelled out in law. Does anyone really want to be the test case intentionally and suffer a possible criminal record and the possibility of loosing your right to even own a firearm anywhere in the USA. It’s one of the reasons we are allowed to sue a state on a potentially unconstitutional law without actually breaking that law first.

I certainly have no desire to be the test case of any potential criminal law. No matter How minor of a law it maybe. Don’t even want to challenge class D misdemeanors. At least not by breaking the law first.

I am actually going to wait to apply after SCOTUS issues their opinion. See how things play out after that. I prefer to be an optimist and think more positive. So I believe it will be much easier to get an unrestricted LTC at that point.

I will do the same for several other Currently may issue states that one can get a non-resident LTC. NJ, MD, HI, RI. CA doesnt allow for non-resident, NY only allows for non-resident if you are Military, Police, own/lease property or a business in NY, or are employed in NY.

I am aware of several suits in various different districts being readied to be filed to open up reciprocity among the states after the SCOTUS ruling. Even some others that will be looking at getting states to start issuing non-resident LTC’s as well. These will be filed more so based on the 14th amendment. Equal protection.