Knife vs. Gun...

[C-pher]

A buddy sent me this link...

It's got some pretty cool videos that show how dangerous a knife can be at close distance even if you are carrying a gun.

http://gunner777.livejournal.com/

 

[Mortis]

Wowsers

 

[Supermoto]

Knives are very effective at close range, but the problem with this video is that the officer is static, any movement to the attackers weak side will greatly increase the time to react and counter

 

[TonyD]

Knives are very effective at close range, but the problem with this video is that the officer is static...

Which is exactly how most LEO's would REact. That's why any instructor worth their salt teaches the twenty-one foot rule. In this video the officer KNEW what was coming and still could not react in time. On the street, the officer (or civillian) has to see the threat, process and interpret the information, form a plan and then react.

Edged weapons are devestating with only the slightest of ability. Those who still think it's silly to bring a knife to gun fight are grossy misinformed. I believe M. Asaad has been preaching this for nearly thirty years.

 

[Chris]

Tuller Drill. Run it, Know it, Remember it.

 

[TonyD]

I'm going to move this into the training techniques forum in hopes of garnering more responses. I'll give my theory on this shortly.

 

[Cato]

This is mentioned every so often and I'm not sure what the point is.

I was in line at the bank this afternoon. The guy behind me could have stabbed me in the back at least two times before I had time to react. No great discovery here.

One is still better off with a firearm. Reverse the situation. If the officer had a knife on his waist and someone pulled a gun and shot from seven yards how do you think the guy with the knife would make out?

 

[TonyD]

This is mentioned every so often and I'm not sure what the point is.

I was in line at the bank this afternoon. The guy behind me could have stabbed me in the back at least two times before I had time to react. No great discovery here.

One is still better off with a firearm. Reverse the situation. If the officer had a knife on his waist and someone pulled a gun and shot from seven yards how do you think the guy with the knife would make out?

You are missing the point. The point is is that the safety zone is much larger than most people percieve. This drill demonstates than an officer, or civillian, in a potential self-defense confrontation can be mortally wounded by an individual as far away as twenty-one feet.

It has nothing to do with standing in line at the bank or grocery store. It means that if you encounter someone in a threatening manner, that seven yards is not sufficient to guarentee you enough reaction time to properly defend yourself.

 

[Cato]

I didn't miss the point Tony. I just think that it is obvious and most people do perceive this. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe you're right and they don't. It just seems common sense that someone can injure you at any time if you are not expecting it whether it is a sucker punch or someone attacking with a knife before you have time to draw and fire your gun. Carrying a firearm is no guarantee of safety.

 

[TonyD]

I didn't miss the point Tony. I just think that it is obvious and most people do perceive this. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe you're right and they don't. It just seems common sense that someone can injure you at any time if you are not expecting it whether it is a sucker punch or someone attacking with a knife before you have time to draw and fire your gun. Carrying a firearm is no guarantee of safety.

No, it's not any guarantee and that is part of the point. You have no idea how many folks I've taught that had no clue of this.

It is absolutely not obvious to Jonh Q. who has no experience in defensive tactics.

 

[Cato]

I would have thought that people would realize this. Point taken.

 

[TonyD]

I would have thought that people would realize this. Point taken.

Unfortunately, no. LEO's can be the worse.

 

[C-pher]

I didn't miss the point Tony. I just think that it is obvious and most people do perceive this. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe you're right and they don't. It just seems common sense that someone can injure you at any time if you are not expecting it whether it is a sucker punch or someone attacking with a knife before you have time to draw and fire your gun. Carrying a firearm is no guarantee of safety.

There is one thing thing that you're missing. The officer WAS expecting it. He knew that at some point that the BG was going to attack. He was even at the ready with his hand close to his gun. Still, even knowing this...he wasn't able to defend themselves properly.

 

[FPrice]

Do you have to join this forum to see the video?

 

[C-pher]

Nope, it's not a fourm. It's more like a blog.

 

[JimConway]

Tueller Drill

During the Force on Force class that we had this past Summer, it became clear that the Tueller Drill was a suicide drill if you did not move off of the "X". When the average good guy moved and kept moving he could defeat the Tueller drill as close as 4 yards, We found that the best angles for movement were toward the BG's 1:00 or 11:00 o'clock

 

[Cato]

There is one thing thing that you're missing. The officer WAS expecting it. He knew that at some point that the BG was going to attack. He was even at the ready with his hand close to his gun. Still, even knowing this...he wasn't able to defend themselves properly.

True. Good point.

As Tony pointed out I was under the misconception that most all gun owners were aware of the "21 foot rule". I am very surprised that LEOs can be the worst as Tony indicated.

The 21 foot rule is a valuable point of interest but should not be used in order to conclude that carrying a gun is not a good defense against a knife attack. Not that anyone here said that.

I knew this guy who took knife fighting classes. The instructor lived in the Attleboro area and was an internationally recognized trainer. He trained US federal agents as well as agents from other countries. The guy I knew showed me some of what he learned. I was very impressed. He had red welts all over his forearms from being "slashed" with plastic training knives. I wouldn't have wanted to mess with him in a knife fight.

One of the things that my friend learned about was the 21 foot rule. After completing the training he in my opinion drew the false conclusion that if an attacker was within 21 feet that he would prefer to have a knife rather that a handgun for defense. He was convinced.

What he could not seem to grasp is that the defender would not be able to draw a knife any faster that a handgun. You would still get cut first by the attacker whether you had a gun or a knife for protection. Once your defensive weapon was drawn it would be more advantageous to have a gun that a knife IMO.

 

[Supermoto]

A gun is much easier to defend against than a Knife when you are in arms length

A gun has one angle of attack. it is a static weapon. you point it, you shoot it.. It is easier to deflect the attack and get out of the line of fire.

A knife on the other hand is very dynamic. it is much harder to deflect the attacker because the knife is in constant motion. a redirect of the attack will still leave you open to a counter attack

 

[Cato]

A gun is much easier to defend against than a Knife when you are in arms length

A gun has one angle of attack. it is a static weapon. you point it, you shoot it.. It is easier to deflect the attack and get out of the line of fire.

A knife on the other hand is very dynamic. it is much harder to deflect the attacker because the knife is in constant motion. a redirect of the attack will still leave you open to a counter attack

Sure if you are using the gun as a club.

Gun should be drawn, kept waist high and close to the body while weak arm is extended. Fire away at will.

 

[Supermoto]

A gun has only one line of attack, where the muzzle is pointed, this is not the case with a knife.

You are taking about using the gun in a defensive manner. kept close to you with you arm out is great for retention but limits your options. A good knife fighter will take your weak arm out of the fight immediately while moving to your weak side. now you will be left with with a gun on your strong side with the attack coming from your weak side with no way to defend yourself. you only option is to turn into the fight.

You're idea of stand, draw and protect will not work in the dynamic knife fight. It is only affective in a stand and stab knife fight

The only good defense in a knife fight is redirection and distance, that will allow you the time and distance to deploy a firearm

 

[Cato]

A gun has only one line of attack, where the muzzle is pointed, this is not the case with a knife.

You are taking about using the gun in a defensive manner. kept close to you with you arm out is great for retention but limits your options. A good knife fighter will take your weak arm out of the fight immediately while moving to your weak side. now you will be left with with a gun on your strong side with the attack coming from your weak side with no way to defend yourself. you only option is to turn into the fight.

You're idea of stand, draw and protect will not work in the dynamic knife fight. It is only affective in a stand and stab knife fight

The only good defense in a knife fight is redirection and distance, that will allow you the time and distance to deploy a firearm

My contention that it is better to have a gun assumes that both parties are of equal skill level. I would agree that a "good knife fighter" would accomplish what you describe against a poor or average gun fighter. However with two equally skilled individuals my money would be on the gun fighter. The phrase "never bring a knife to a gun fight" was not coined for no good reason.

Hey we disagree but thanks for the discussion. I need to get going.

But perhaps we could compromise....

 

[Admin]

I like it Cato!

 

[TonyD]

The problem here is that any and all offensive and defensive techniques can be beat in the classroom. This is becuase everyone knows what is going to happen and the defender doesn't have to interpret the attackers action and decide on an appropriate reaction.

It never failed during DT's, someone would always say, "Yeah, but if you do that I could do this..."

As Supermoto and Jim C. pointed out, movement is key to increasing your odds of survival and defeating the attacker - getting off the centerline is crucial. Now enter into the equation the most people, including most LEO's, shoot and / or qualify from a static position.

This is not about preferring a knife to a gun. This is simply an illustration as to how lethal an attacker can be even without a firearm - even at distance. And to show that just because you are armed doesn't necessarily mean you're safe.

 

[rapture]

One of my friends, a US Army Ranger who has just been released from active duty due to a torn ACL, has always told me when I carry concealed, to have a knife as handy if not more handy then my pistol. He has gone through several years of self defense training in the Army. He always told me that in close UNEXPECTED combat, a knife will win every time. The key is to be alert and always aware of your surroundings. One day, I accidently caught him off guard. I pulled my knife to clean some dirt out from under my fingernail. His first reaction, although he also carries concealed, was to back up from me as quickly as possible while pulling out his own knife. I was shocked at how quickly he moved. Before I could comprehend what was happening, he was about fifteen feet away from me with his knife completely drawn. We talked about it afterwards, and for him it's become an instinctual reaction. Anyone with a weapon within 20 - 30 feet, he pulls the knife, any further he draws his CCW. He gave me lots of tips/scenerios and constantly insists that I train on them. The thing I always thought was a bit interesting was that he carries one CCW with a 15 rnd magazine, however he carries 2 - 3 knives on different locations throughout his body. He has told me in the past, that on the street 90% of all armed conflict will be close range, where your main battle weapon will be a knife. Finaly, to always remember that a lost weapon becomes a potentialy found weapon for your attacker/enemy.

 

[M1911]

I just think that it is obvious and most people do perceive this. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe you're right and they don't. It just seems common sense that someone can injure you at any time if you are not expecting it whether it is a sucker punch or someone attacking with a knife before you have time to draw and fire your gun.

1) Most people do not realize it. 2) If you ever have to shoot someone who has a knife, there are people (idiots, yes) who will say that you shouldn't have shot him because he "only" had a knife and he was 10' away. 3) Being able to demonstrate that you have done the Tueller drill and thus knew that the perp was an immediate threat, even at that distance, means that you just might be able to introduce that fact at trial. That gives your counsel the opportunity to teach the jury about how quickly someone can close distance and how much time it can take to draw and fire.

 

[matt1956]

True. Good point.

As Tony pointed out I was under the misconception that most all gun owners were aware of the "21 foot rule". I am very surprised that LEOs can be the worst as Tony indicated.

The 21 foot rule is a valuable point of interest but should not be used in order to conclude that carrying a gun is not a good defense against a knife attack. Not that anyone here said that.

I knew this guy who took knife fighting classes. The instructor lived in the Attleboro area and was an internationally recognized trainer. He trained US federal agents as well as agents from other countries. The guy I knew showed me some of what he learned. I was very impressed. He had red welts all over his forearms from being "slashed" with plastic training knives. I wouldn't have wanted to mess with him in a knife fight.

One of the things that my friend learned about was the 21 foot rule. After completing the training he in my opinion drew the false conclusion that if an attacker was within 21 feet that he would prefer to have a knife rather that a handgun for defense. He was convinced.

What he could not seem to grasp is that the defender would not be able to draw a knife any faster that a handgun. You would still get cut first by the attacker whether you had a gun or a knife for protection. Once your defensive weapon was drawn it would be more advantageous to have a gun that a knife IMO.

I believe the instructor you are refering to is Tom Sotus. He is a nationally known and very well respected member of the martial arts and had train all types of US and other countries military, police and other agencies.

Now.. I can assure you that Professor Sotus would not mislead someone to think that a knife is better then a gun... your friend must have been a bit misunderstood.

However, I can also tell you that anyone with a gun that faces someone with the skills of Professor Sotus, would almost definately loose badly. The man is just absolutely amazing with a blade as are his students.

Number one rule to know about knife fighting.

If you get into a knife fight, YOU WILL GET CUT. accept it.

The question comes down to how badly and did you disarm/kill your attacker?

 

[2 Alpha]

"If you get into a knife fight, YOU WILL GET CUT. accept it."

This method of thinking is flawed and old school. That's like saying if I get into a gunfight, I'll get shot. If I get into a streetfight, I'll get knocked out. Let me tell you, there are countless cops/soldiers that have been gunfights, and have come out unscathed. As a bouncer in the city of Boston for 10 years, I personally have been in numerous streetfights where my opponent never even came close to landing one.

That way of thinking is basically taking yourself out of the fight before it even begins. Of course, there is a very real possibility that it could happen. But I don't train in gun, knife, and empty hand, constantly, only to believe, I may get cut, shot, beat-up.

If some punk were to pull a knife to mug me, depending on the situation, I either will zipper him with my .45, slice and dice with my blade, or break some bones. After which I plan on walking away, unscathed. If you don't have the skills, that's one thing. If you have the skills and don't have the williingness and ferocity to use them, that is something totally different.

 

[Cato]

I believe the instructor you are refering to is Tom Sotus. He is a nationally known and very well respected member of the martial arts and had train all types of US and other countries military, police and other agencies.

That's him! Thanks.

Now.. I can assure you that Professor Sotus would not mislead someone to think that a knife is better then a gun... your friend must have been a bit misunderstood.

Yes, that's what I meant and was the point I attempted to make.

 

[Jaxon]

If some punk were to pull a knife to mug me, depending on the situation, I either will zipper him with my .45, slice and dice with my blade, or break some bones. After which I plan on walking away, unscathed. If you don't have the skills, that's one thing. If you have the skills and don't have the williingness and ferocity to use them, that is something totally different.

That's the theory and what you hope will happen. Its not always the case, as most of these posts have attested to.

 

[fubar]

Wait , Please.

Does Tom Sotis live in Attleboro ? I figured he was far away.