LEO Carry Ammo

[In God We Trust]

Why would an officer understand what kind of gas their cruiser runs on? What kind of battery's in their radio?

Maybe I'm just a little too "Army" for this kind of discussion. I dunno. I guess I just think a professional should know the tools of his trade.

I just knew that we always used the same ammo so I know where to hold on the target. Never gave it much thought. It went bang.

that was probably the Army for me also. I knew the 5.56 had a green tip and hit was I was aiming at. I didn’t know it was Lake City or whatever until after I got out.

 

[drgrant]

No track. It went through the hide and stopped after hitting a rib. I never thought about weight. I can get the weight tomorrow.

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It looks like it expanded pretty well which to me means that it had to travel through something in order to do that.... most jhp's aren't going to expand like that without going through some meat.

 

[PappyM3]

It looks like it expanded pretty well which to me means that it had to travel through something in order to do that.... most jhp's aren't going to expand like that without going through some meat.

Looking at gel tests, it seems Winchester Ranger 147gr starts expanding at about 0.5” of a fluid medium, and is fully expanded by the 1” mark. Pretty short neck.

That said, it’s not just deer. Terminal ballistics are unpredictable in people too. And not just with pistol bullets. I’ve heard of officers taking oblique shots and 5.56 not penetrating through the arm.

 

[dcmdon]

Nope. Granted he just transferred to another town a month ago. He is more a car guy than a gun guy. Not that I'm saying he doesn't like guns.

All he has to do is remove the mag and look at the ammo. He can read the headstsmp to get the brand.

 

[deerdad]

Just checked it on my Frankford Arsenal digital scale. 229.9 gr. It's a little deformed on the base but I got .450. That's telling me that State PD in Franklin County are using 45's. I keep looking at my pic of the hide pulled back and it HAD to come from the other side. I just don't remember an entrance hole on the other side.

 

[Kisspik002]

All depends on the agency. Most use higher quality defense or duty rounds. Hollow Points. Brands range from Federal, Winchester, Speer, Hornady.

 

[Love Machine]

Dont manufacturers now have their own law enforcement branded rounds?

 

[Twigg]

Kinda off topic but, relevant, there was a website I had bookmarked which compared penetration and expansion of various rounds but I lost it when I couldn't recall my password & had to reset my laptop when I came home from the hospital. Amnesia sucks. I do recall the HST round in .45 expanded to .87 inch.

 

[M1911]

Dont manufacturers now have their own law enforcement branded rounds?

We’ve already told you the what they use. The companies may label some boxes “law enforcement only”, but what is in those 50 round boxes is the same round as what they sell to the rest of us in 20 round boxes at higher cost. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Duty, etc. Those four probably make up the bulk of what law enforcement agencies use.

 

[Tartakovsky]

No offense but who cares what cops carry? They‘re cops, not Navy SEALs. Your average NESer shoots more in a weekend than your average cop shoots in a year.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-9mm-ammo-self-defense-range/

 

[mike1960]

No offense but who cares what cops carry? They‘re cops, not Navy SEALs. Your average NESer shoots more in a weekend than your average cop shoots in a year.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-9mm-ammo-self-defense-range/

Tavarish my only reason for asking was curiosity. You are correct most police only draw their pistol for their quals however infrequent those may be.

 

[PappyM3]

No offense but who cares what cops carry? They‘re cops, not Navy SEALs. Your average NESer shoots more in a weekend than your average cop shoots in a year.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-9mm-ammo-self-defense-range/

Yeah, cops aren’t SEALs. But I’d wager that LE engage more people with pistols in a year than SEALs have in their entire existence. Non-LE may shoot a lot, but we don’t actually engage threats often

LE also have the funds to conduct effectiveness studies, both with gel and using MDs to analyze gunshot wounds to establish trends, along with looking at barrier penetration. Police actually get access to bodies after shootings to do research. Obviously not all agencies do that, but enough do and share their findings.

Some people also think it may help them in court for a self defense shooting, if they use what the local agency/department uses.

 

[MassPete]

Just watched an interview with Rob O'neil. Said he put three 77 grain rounds in Bin Ladens face and split it in half. The pictures we saw of him dead were fake. I'm going with 77 grain now..

 

[Tartakovsky]

Just watched an interview with Rob O'neil. Said he put three 77 grain rounds in Bin Ladens face and split it in half. The pictures we saw of him dead were fake. I'm going with 77 grain now..

77gr OTM is great stuff, especially traveling at 2500+ fps.

 

[PappyM3]

77gr OTM is great stuff, especially traveling at 2500+ fps.

Definitely better than M855 for external and terminal ballistics. But I gotta say, for terminal ballistics TSX, 77gr TMK, and even M855A1 are better than 77gr SMK.

Mk262 was a massive improvement over M855 though. And for external ballistics in a magazine length 5.56 load, 77gr SMK is really only bested by 77gr TMK and 73gr ELD-M. 77gr SMK is a good load to bulk up on.

 

[drgrant]

We’ve already told you the what they use. The companies may label some boxes “law enforcement only”, but what is in those 50 round boxes is the same round as what they sell to the rest of us in 20 round boxes at higher cost. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Duty, etc. Those four probably make up the bulk of what law enforcement agencies use.

I'll also add..... there are 50 round retail boxes of all of that stuff, but it goes through different distribution channels. Traditional gun shops usually end up with the 20s/25s.... mainly because every mid loves to rape on that shit, and the shops tend to not care as much as they should because they just pass the rape along to the consumer who seems to be more than willing to pay for it. It's basically an industry convenience tax, unless you poke around enough to find the 50s.

Just checked it on my Frankford Arsenal digital scale. 229.9 gr. It's a little deformed on the base but I got .450. That's telling me that State PD in Franklin County are using 45's. I keep looking at my pic of the hide pulled back and it HAD to come from the other side. I just don't remember an entrance hole on the other side.

That's probably RA45T, or it's +P cousin. That's actually a decent round in my book. It's all I will carry in my G30... it will still clock at 850ish FPS on the chrono out of a 3.5in barrel.

 

[drgrant]

77gr OTM is great stuff, especially traveling at 2500+ fps.

It's just too bad that it's like rape commercially to buy it. I f***ed up by not buying cases of IMI Razor when it was like 12 bux a box.

 

[PappyM3]

It's just too bad that it's like rape commercially to buy it. I f***ed up by not buying cases of IMI Razor when it was like 12 bux a box.

The Magtech loaded 77gr OTM was sub-MOA for me with 8 round groups, and when I tested it, it was $0.50 a round. I kick myself every day for not buying a few cases of that.

 

[drgrant]

The Magtech loaded 77gr OTM was sub-MOA for me with 8 round groups, and when I tested it, it was $0.50 a round. I kick myself every day for not buying a few cases of that.

In testing did you find it to be significantly different out to 100 yards in POI vs other bullet weights? I mostly shoot like m193 or occasionally some of the PMC 62 grain m855 stuff but I never got a chance to actually compare everything side by side with a test target.

 

[drgrant]

Kinda off topic but, relevant, there was a website I had bookmarked which compared penetration and expansion of various rounds but I lost it when I couldn't recall my password & had to reset my laptop when I came home from the hospital. Amnesia sucks. I do recall the HST round in .45 expanded to .87 inch.

Ammolab was great when he was around. The only other guy that I really trusted was the dude on YouTube, tnoutdoors9... he had a throrough test protocol, including actually chronoing all his tests and telling you the gun he used, etc. He also was not frugal about the use of his ballistic gel, generally speaking he'd shoot a block once and cut it open.

 

[PappyM3]

In testing did you find it to be significantly different out to 100 yards in POI vs other bullet weights? I mostly shoot like m193 or occasionally some of the PMC 62 grain m855 stuff but I never got a chance to actually compare everything side by side with a test target.

I would say yes, but I was thinking in a precision mindset. If I recall, they would all be within the vital zone at 100. I’m going to try and hit up the range this week and I’ll aggregate the different bullet groups at 100 to show total possible MOA dispersion between the different loads.

 

[drgrant]

I would say yes, but I was thinking in a precision mindset. If I recall, they would all be within the vital zone at 100. I’m going to try and hit up the range this week and I’ll aggregate the different bullet groups at 100 to show total possible MOA dispersion between the different loads.

Yeah that's mostly the thing I'm kind of concerned about in other words if you zero a gun with say a 262 clone like rhe razor, and then shoot say 62 or 55 grain ammo, I'm curious how far off it would be at 100 yards and whether it would end up going low or high (or even off windage, which would reeeealy suck. )

 

[Nick Fury]

Kinda off topic but, relevant, there was a website I had bookmarked which compared penetration and expansion of various rounds but I lost it when I couldn't recall my password & had to reset my laptop when I came home from the hospital. Amnesia sucks. I do recall the HST round in .45 expanded to .87 inch.

Luckygunner.com has a really good ballistic gel database. There were a few well known carry rounds that were anything but reliable. And some caliber defensive ammo (.380, .32) that do not expand at all. Just because they make it does not mean it works…

 

[Mark from MA]

Is a deer a good human analog? Did it not blow the lung out of the body? (I feel like I've been lied to)

No.....I've shot deer in the chest with a 12 gauge slug from 15 yards....and they ran away sometimes more than 100 yards.

Don't think many humans would be able to do that.

 

[jkelly1229]

No.....I've shot deer in the chest with a 12 gauge slug from 15 yards....and they ran away sometimes more than 100 yards.

Don't think many humans would be able to do that.

I dropped a 1200 pound bison with a 200 grain 300 win on the spot

Shot placement matters on all critters

You could put a 12 gauge in someone's right lung and yeah they could walk off for a bit

Wouldn't be a good time but it's doable

 

[PappyM3]

I dropped a 1200 pound bison with a 200 grain 300 win on the spot

Shot placement matters on all critters

You could put a 12 gauge in someone's right lung and yeah they could walk off for a bit

Wouldn't be a good time but it's doable

Yeah, there’s no guarantees except for CNS hits. It seems that animals don’t suffer from psychological incapacitation the way people sometimes do. So they might still run for 50 yards with a mortal wound because they don’t have as much of a developed neocortex part of the brain for higher level thinking. A human shot through the lungs may just give up, even though they could technically keep fighting for a little while.

Of course there are no absolutes (aside from good CNS hits), but I think the lack of the developed neocortex is one of the reasons animals behave tougher than people.

 

[Picton]

Yeah, there’s no guarantees except for CNS hits. It seems that animals don’t suffer from psychological incapacitation the way people sometimes do. So they might still run for 50 yards with a mortal wound because they don’t have as much of a developed neocortex part of the brain for higher level thinking. A human shot through the lungs may just give up, even though they could technically keep fighting for a little while.

Of course there are no absolutes (aside from good CNS hits), but I think the lack of the developed neocortex is one of the reasons animals behave tougher than people.

I thought about this, too. A lung-shot animal doesn't realize it's a dead man walking. So it doesn't succumb to despair.

 

[drgrant]

Luckygunner.com has a really good ballistic gel database. There were a few well known carry rounds that were anything but reliable. And some caliber defensive ammo (.380, .32) that do not expand at all. Just because they make it does not mean it works…

I'll have to revisit it but IIRC there was something I didn't like about their testing protocol but at least some data is better than nothing, and at least they seem to chrono.

And yes... most 32/380/etc JHPs basically don't work, even the hot stuff isn't that reliable. In some cases you could even argue that the stuff is a liability versus ball ammo if we're talking 32 or 380.

Yeah, there’s no guarantees except for CNS hits. It seems that animals don’t suffer from psychological incapacitation the way people sometimes do. So they might still run for 50 yards with a mortal wound because they don’t have as much of a developed neocortex part of the brain for higher level thinking. A human shot through the lungs may just give up, even though they could technically keep fighting for a little while.

Of course there are no absolutes (aside from good CNS hits), but I think the lack of the developed neocortex is one of the reasons animals behave tougher than people.

Humans also overthink often, hence the police officer that was fired upon by acorns and/or squirrels.

 

[PappyM3]

Yeah that's mostly the thing I'm kind of concerned about in other words if you zero a gun with say a 262 clone like rhe razor, and then shoot say 62 or 55 grain ammo, I'm curious how far off it would be at 100 yards and whether it would end up going low or high (or even off windage, which would reeeealy suck. )

I was able to test a few loads at 100 yards. BLUF: At 100 yards it really doesn't matter what ammo you're running compared to your zero for most use cases.

The rifle had a 14.5" Rainier Mountain fluted barrel, 1:7 twist, 5.56 chamber.

Don't worry about the group sizes too much, as it was near sunset, in the rain, and my self-printed targets were kind of muddled in the view along with the fact that the Athlon BTR Gen II 2-12 reticle is not conducive to tiny groups.

These images are overlays of all the different 5-round groups that I shot for each load. The yellow star indicates the point of aim.

There are indeed windage shifts, but inconsequential at 100 yards.

Edit: The pink circle with the plus load is Magtech 55gr M193 5.56, not a second Hornady 55gr.

 

[dcmdon]

Yes, shooting .223/5.56, if you have a good zero, anything will shoot to point of aim at such a short distance. There is essentially no drop at that distance, so muzzle velocity or ballistic coefficient are pretty much irrelevant.

As you go further out things diverge

One interesting experiment would be to do the same thing with a 9mm carbine. Considering the substantial drop at 100 yards with 9mm, I'd bet you would see the different brands and bullet weights impact in very different places.