License renewel questions

Laura

Laura

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Peabody, MA
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Just got the card today from the Criminal History Systems Board (they couldn't find a better department to handle this? [roll] ) Anyway...I'm told I can download the necessary forms (maybe from the Peabody PD) or their site. I might actually have more copies of this in my files since I figured it'd be the same paperwork for renewing. A couple of things concern me - well, actually more:

a) moving to a condo and the damn post office still can't agree on the street name so I still don't have an address yet. We're moving in August, the end of the month and we're seriously running out of time for the 30 days notice. I don't want to say "Hey, ass***, I'm a gun owner and need this address for legal purposes!" Obviously, I don't know what the condo's position is on gun ownership and don't want to let anyone in on this detail.

b) do I need to take this firearms safety course, yet again or not?

c) I currently have a Class A for work purposes. I was told after four years it'd be upgraded to "All lawful Purposes" but who the hell knows with Peabody? One of the cops in this city damn near beat his mother to death and beat her daily, the whole time the chief just brushed it under the rug until he put her in the hospital and the press got wind of it. Isn't that great? I may not get the upgrade even though I've been law abiding.

How can I word my request for the all lawful purpose carry? My birthday is in October but as these things can drag, putting it in early may be the best move but maybe I can't do anything yet without the new address....appreciate any advice and info on this renewel process. Thank you.
 
Ill work out of order.
1. Check into a PO box. That what I have, as I've moved a few times recenetly. Keeps everything in one place.
EDIT that wont work, thats only good for the mailings, not the actual LTC. How long ago did you move? Could you still use your old address?

2. No, you dont need to take the class, unless it's that chief's requirement. But why not freshenup?

3. Personaly, I'de word something like ... Applying to be able to continue carrying as responsibility for work, while extending this oppertunity to hours off-the-clock... (now cite a reason or two, the family is always a good one).

but thtas just me. I live in a "green town", my first firearm license is class-A ALP, and i havent yet needed to renew (5.5 yrs to go wooo)

Good luck
 
I haven't moved yet, but will be moving in late August (assuming the condo is ready by then as it's still being built). The post office is arguing with the condo about the address so we're still up in the air about that.

About the permit, it has a work restriction on it but when I finally got it, no one would hire a woman for armed work. First, they wouln't hire me with a Class B, then they just wouldn't hire me. So I got tired of waiting and became and an extremely under paid admin at the Federal level. My job doesn't require a firearm and unless I transfer to Homeland Security, I won't ever need a firearm at work so that arguement won't fly. Besides, I'm 37 now which prohibits me from any armed work in Homeland Defense or anywhere else for that matter.

I'd like to find a good statement for why I should be allowed an upgrade for all lawful purpose carry. BTW, I did find the extra copy of the paperwork in my files so no need to download that or pick it up at the PD.
 
When I recently obtained my Class A, I did not realize that there was a menu of restrictions. I thought the Class A allowed all purposes short of full auto. I was disappointed to find that this is not the case. How and when are these restrictions decided upon? There was certainly not a list of choices on the application. The word restriction appears no place on the license, so how does one know what the restrictions are, or even that there are any? There is a place that indicates the "Reason For Issuing License", but there is no indication whatsoever that I am in any way restricted in the carrying of a firearm under my direct control.

If this involved anything besides the ownership and transport of a firearm, I would say that the attempt at restricting my use according to the license would never hold up in court. I'm not so naive to believe that though.

In plain English, a reason for issuance is not a statement of restriction. I don't hunt and never claimed that as my intent, but that purpose is stated on my license. The license states "Issued for use of holder named hereon. Use or possession except as prescribed by law is unlawful. There is absolutely no statement anywhere on that license that speaks of a restriction unless that little quote refers to something somewhere else the defines the stated "reason for issuing license" as the only lawful use of the firearm. If that is the case, can someone direct me to it?

I can't claim to be fully knowledgeable concerning MA gun laws (who can?), but I have never come across anything that explained restrictions or even listed them. It's irritating to know that I did not get what I thought I was applying for. How would I know what to apply for and where to state that? Should I have written "All Lawful Purposes" on my Class A application where it asked for what purpose I wanted a license? I thought I was prepared for my application, but without a lawyer, perhaps I was not.

I should add that Nantucket has historically been cooperative with those applying for licenses. Both the former and present chiefs have been fair about issuance.
 
I knew that I could get a Class A or B, and obviously wanted the A. I was told it's never given unless for work so I tried to find something in armed security, did, and got upgraded with a restriction - but never got the position to carry. I became disgusted with the company and left. I was angry myself when I got my permit that there were so many complications and even my teacher (NRA) thought "for all lawful purposes" should have been enough. Not in my city... [evil]
 
dvl said:
In plain English, a reason for issuance is not a statement of restriction. I don't hunt and never claimed that as my intent, but that purpose is stated on my license.
Click to expand...
And the courts see it that way too. Caselaw after caselaw affirms that courts around the state aggree that, while they may have issued it to you for target, personal protection, work, etc and state it on the LTC, MGL no where scopes out the limits of ANY restrictions. As far as these courts are considered, a Class-A is a Class A until the cows come home, and even then, you still have a Class-A. Even Boston;s "restricted" red stamp hold about as much weight as a scratch-and-sniff stamp on your LTC as well.

Now, if this were to come to that, (court), while even the most horrible attorney could get anything criminal dropped, you can bet your lmonths slary that your town is going to pull your license as being "unfit" i.e. cant follow instructions.
 
How and when are these restrictions decided upon?
Click to expand...

DVL, they are decided upon by the Chief or his appointed minion, arbitrarily, when they process your application. I suspect the officer you dealt with filled that block in while you were sitting there.

I also left mine blank, thinking that if I filled it in, it might trigger an interrogation as to why I "need" to carry. I would have a hard time justifying such a need, as the most dangerous thing I realistically face each day is having a computer fall on my foot. Fortunately, my town has an elightened policy and the officer filled in ALP while I was sitting there, no questions asked.
 
I have to say that my town and my chief are gun friendly in that there are no deceptions, no funny looks, none of that stuff because I was applying for the license. I filled in the purpose myself not having any idea that it would suggest that I be restricted in any way. I have friends on the force here including a guy I shoot with and I want to give credit where credit is due. This department has good people making good decisions. It's the convoluted laws that I find so annoying.

I have a good reason to carry for the protection of my fiancé and myself, documented within this very department, but I did not refer to it when I applied for my license. Frankly, I did not get the license because of the threat, but that threat is one reason why I wanted to legally carry a concealed weapon if I felt the need. I am not trained in self defense with a firearm and would use it only as a last resort. But I would like the option if I get a phone call from a stalker who traveled thousands of miles to "visit" me as has already happened once.

I really wish the Commonwealth would clean up the General Laws to reduce the chance of any of us going to prison simply because we could not decipher them.
 
If you own a gun, you should always train to use it, otherwise take karate and carry pepper spray. I've studied martial arts for years and was told to stick with that and carry pepper spray. Wish my PD were more open minded.
 
Laura, I will be proficient with the gun under ordinary circumstances, but it's self defense techniques that I lack. I'm considering taking a course to remedy that as I think carrying for defense without extensive knowledge is irresponsible. The last thing I would want to do is to become a threat to public safety instead of enhancing my own!
 
OK, I'll try to answer some of this. It is obvious from the postings that none of you are members of GOAL. Take a look at www.goal.org, join up and most of your questions will be answered.

- The LTC form HAS changed in the past few years, it is now 4 or 6 pages long. So, use your old one as a guideline, but DL the latest one to actually use/submit. [This assumes your town doesn't have MIRCS and do the application totally online at the PD. Still filling out the paper is good so you know what answers to give. Omissions/errors are grounds for LTC denial, so pre-planning is important.]

- If your address changes, even if the USPO does it to you and you didn't move, you are LEGALLY obligated to make notification (certified/return receipt) within a short time limit or it is grounds for LTC revocation and denial of future LTCs. So Laura better hope that the condo association and USPO come to some agreement real fast!

- Do NOT breathe a word of your gun ownership to the condo association or any of their officers. If you do so, they may pass a bylaw (that WILL have legal standing) that could prohibit you from possessing guns on their property! Condo associations are nefarious for screwing the inhabitants.

- Courses are Legally required only for your first LTC/FID application. Many chiefs require it for every renewal under their 100% discretion on who is "suitable" or not.

- Purpose/Restrictions - Totally arbitrary on the part of your local chief. There is NO standard, nothing in the law per see, but chiefs are well known to revoke LTCs under "suitability" if someone is doing something that the chief feels is "inappropriate" and you really don't have much realistic recourse after the fact.

- What is the chief looking for to justify LTC-A/ALP? There are 351 towns/cities and there are 351 different answers to this question. Short of finding out from someone licensed in your own town, there isn't much chance of knowing what will work in a given town. I do know that sex discrimination is alive and well in the ranks of local chiefs . . . there are those that don't believe that women can or should protect themselves and they will regularly deny LTC-A/ALP to women but yet issue them to men. Nasty but true! :(
 
dvl, Listen to Laura . . . she is 110% correct!

If you aren't going to do defensive training with it, if you were ever to need it you'd react like you were trained (NOT)!

When you are ready for defensive training, take a look at www.neshooters.com for international trainers running classes here in MA!

I attended Jim Crews class last Summer and it was awesome. Randy Cain last month was icing on the cake, and I'm looking forward to Gabe Suarez's class next week. All these classes were run in Tyngsboro, MA.
 
I think an untrained person carrying with the idea that they could defend themselves or anyone is a danger to themselves and to their community. I would not consider carrying for protection without training.

I participate on several boards where people who carry or stock up for survival always fantasize about the gun battles they will have and win. They never seem to take into account that they might lose! I swear that some are eager for confrontation. I pray it never happens.

My application was four pages. It asked for a reason for the application but did not indicate what the choices were or that the answer could result in a restriction. This doesn't currently represent a problem, but I would like to have a card for ALP.
 
GOAL just published a long article about restrictions/"reasons for issuance" in latest newspaper. Members get a copy each month and I'll assume that if we're interested enough in these issues AND a GOAL member we'd even read the paper!

GOAL - Gun Owners Action League. They are a lobbyist and educational group and the ONLY group working to protect gun owners rights in MA! They have a staff of 4 people, many volunteers help out, and there are less than 20K members total.
 
Goal is really a great org for Mass residents. I don't know why every MA gun owner isn't a member.

They are mostly the ones that we can thank for the little things. Like getting the new extortion of 100 buck license going from 4 years to 6. They are also ones to thank for getting the renewal 90 day safety net out there. And the smaller card, etc... They do a lot for MA gun owners. And the more members they have, the more they can do.
 
GOAL just published a long article about restrictions/"reasons for issuance" in latest newspaper. Members get a copy each month and I'll assume that if we're interested enough in these issues AND a GOAL member we'd even read the paper!
Click to expand...

Len, maybe I'm missing the specific article you're talking about. I see the one on page 17 ("GOAL Seeks Explanation of 'Reason for Issuance'") of the July '05 issue, but it seems to be just a report of the responses to the survey they took (and to which I responded) concerning different text appended to LTCs by different towns. And it just seems to be raising the same issues and questions that people are discussing here.

I wasn't a GOAL member when I first applied for my LTC; I don't think I would use a different approach (leaving my "Reason for Issuance" block blank) even if I were applying today, based on my personal experience in this particular town.

Again, maybe I'm missing a point here. If so, let me know; I greatly respect and appreciate the knowledge you share on this forum.
 
masochusetts,

If you read the text of that article it raises the issues of "what does it mean"(para 2&3). That plus the list should give the readers insight as to what goes on. There is no rational for the question of "why"! :?
 
I agree with Laura, not wise to leave any line blank on a legal document.

I just put in "All Lawful Purposes" in mine and my Wife does likewise.
 
If you are not sure what to put, and you don't know about your town, maybe you should check out this site.
http://www.massgunlaw.com/
This site is hosted by attorneys that specialize in firearms type law, and will help you fill out your application to give you the best success possible. I know someone who had one of these attorneys help them out on a couple of different occasions with excellent results.

Adam
PS. I am in now way affiliated with this site or the attorneys, just passing on a useful site with great info.
 
Agreed, Atty Jesse Cohen has done miraculous things in "educating" the licensing authorities NOT to be abusive to his clients! [twisted] [twisted]
 
Another option for the "Reason of issuance" line is to ask for every reason there is. In other words, you write "See attached sheet" and then on the attached sheet explain all the reasons you need a license. And in Massachusetts, that is EVERY FLIPPING THING YOU CAN THINK OF.

Something like:

---------------------------------

Reasons for Issuance.

Because of the restrictive nature of Massachusetts gun laws, I must request the license be issued to legally purchase any lawful type of Shotgun, Rifle, and Handgun, to legally posess said types of Shotgun, Rifle, and Handgun, to legally collect said types of shotgun, rifle, and handgun, to lawfully carry said types of shotgun, rifle, and handgun, to lawfully transport said shotgun, rifle and handgun, to legally purchase any lawful ammunition for said shotgun, rifle, and handgun, to lawfully carry said ammunition for said shotgun, rifle, and handgun, to lawfully posess said ammunition for said shotgun, rifle and handgun, to lawfully purchase ammunition reloading equipment and supplies, to lawfully possess said ammunition reloading equipment and supplies, to lawfully transport said ammunition reloading equipmnet and supplies, to lawfully obtain, carry, and use said firearms and ammunition in training courses, to lawfully obtain, carry, and use said firearms and ammunition for competition purposes, to lawfully obtain, carry, and use said firearms and ammunition for hunting, to lawfully obtain, carry, and use said firearms and ammunition for the purposes of instructing others in safe firearms operation, use, and marksmanship, to lawfully use said firearms and ammunition in the defense of my life or that of another should the need arise, to lawfully sell any firearm I own to another permitted adult, and to lawfully perform any other task or activity involving firearms, ammunition, or their components as allowed by Massachusetts and Federal law.

Due to the extremely wide range of activites and products that a Massachusetts Firearm Licenses covers, the only possible reason of issuance that covers each and every case is that which is provided for in M.G.L. Chapter 140 Section 131(a) which states "A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof..., for All Lawful Purposes,...".

----------------------------

This kind of letter not only shows that you fully understand the nature of the license law in Massachusetts and all the ramifications it imposes, but also places in your file a complete record of all the reasons you requested the licence if that were to ever become an issue.

The reason that this issue is such a hot spot is that the wording placed on your licence now carries the weight of law. That same Chapter 140 Section 131(a) provides for the restriction of a license in any manor that the license authority wants. The problem is that there is NO standard definition of what various wording means. For example: Does "Personal Protection" allow you to practice your pistol skills? It can be argued that it doesn't - just like the Massachusetts Supreme Court has declared that citizens of Massachusetts have no right to bear arms back in the Davis trial.

Understand that the wording on that "reason of issuance" carried the weight of law. And that law is being written by an unelected official (your police chief) and carried NO DEFINITION with it. It is up to the arresting officer and the prosecuting attorney to define the words.
 
When filling out the application - the last question asks why you want the gun (paraphrasing).

Answer: FOR ALL LAWFUL PURPOSES.

Do not give them a buffet table of answers. If your Chief isn't a 2nd Amendment believer, he will pick put what he'll give it to you for. The above answer comes straight from the MGL's. If he is going to restrict it, then make him work at restricking it. Also - most (but not ALL) chiefs will not require you to take another safety course, but you can call the department (or stop by to pick up an application). Most of them will have a "to do" list with the application on what you need to do and bring with you.

I don't remember if you said when your license expires (CRS), however, if it expires before you move, put your old address there. You can update it later. The P.O. may straighten it out before you get your license, and, if they mail it to you, then you'll have the "forward mail to" card filled out already with the P.O.

And....they say you have 30 days to notify them of your address change. Just as an aside...they don't ask when the 30 days started. Breathe deep - find your happy place - it will work out fine. [wink]
 
Caution: If you act like a wise-ass (e.g. give a sheet of paper with reasons for LTC-A/ALP, listing every conceivable reason), you are likely to be treated as one.

Many chiefs if faced with a list like above, WILL restrict a license where they may not have done so if you simply put "All Lawful Purposes" in that line.

Don't give them ammunition to get even with you, because they CAN and they can get away with it! There is at least one person that some of us know of who likes confrontation and he got more than his share of it . . . and they won't issue him a LTC at all!
 

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