MA Deadly Force Law

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Someone help me here. I'm having one of those Twilight Zone moments. I have long read and absorbed the usual spiel repeated around here about use of deadly force in MA, namely the bit about needing to exhaust retreat options, needing to reasonably believe you are in danger of death or great bodily harm, etc. However, I can't for the life of me find any reference to this in the actual M.G.L.

I can find the Castle Doctrine and the corresponding law regarding liability, but I cannot find any laws spelling out the details of self-defense, citizen's arrest, and other use-of-force situations described in the jury instructions (http://www.mass.gov/courts/docs/cou...inal/6000-9999/9260-defenses-self-defense.pdf).

I've looked at GOAL's pages, and at https://malegislature.gov/. Am I just looking in the wrong place, or am I blind? I mean, these jury instructions are based on written law and not divine decree, right?
 
MGL C. 278 S. 8A is all that is out there. It protects you somewhat in your home, but NOWHERE ELSE.

Jury instructions on self-defense has been posted here before by others. It gives you more info.
 
So what are the jury instructions based on then? Did the person who sat down to write them just get to invent whatever they felt like? Did the judges that saw the first relevant test cases get to invent whatever they felt like?

Sorry for the judicial/legislative naivety here.
 
Interesting aspect of self-defense in a dwelling:
If the attacker is not an intruder, for example, if it's his house or he's an invited guest, you have to retreat.

If you invite someone into your house, you have to retreat from him.
There's a lesson in there: don't invite strangers into your house. Kind of like vampires.

However, if you tell him to leave and he doesn't, he's trespassing.
Instant intruder.
But you have to demand that he leave before you empty your magazine.
 
Thanks for the info. I'm interested in checking out that book. I'm sort of shocked how naive I was about this aspect of law. I knew of common/case law, but I suppose I didn't think it was quite as explicit as this.

This deeply bothers me. Judicial precedent is one thing when it consists of interpretation, influenced by previous decisions and historical context, of existing written law. It is an entirely different thing when it consists of literally legislating from the bench and fabricating new law that doesn't exist. I understand that this probably happens gradually over the course of many cases.

All I can think of now are the ways in which it can be abused.

Additionally, it sort of gives a whole new spin on the idea of ignorance of the law not being an excuse. How is one supposed to know and follow a set of laws that don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of a set of judges and lawyers? Are people expected to dig up every relevant course case, read the decisions, and try to piece together the "common law" themselves? And of course hope that they aren't subject to a brand new precedent in their own case?

It seems to fly in the face of separation of powers, and to an extent, transparency.

Anyways, thanks for listening to me rant.
 
Thanks for the info. I'm interested in checking out that book. I'm sort of shocked how naive I was about this aspect of law. I knew of common/case law, but I suppose I didn't think it was quite as explicit as this.

This deeply bothers me. Judicial precedent is one thing when it consists of interpretation, influenced by previous decisions and historical context, of existing written law. It is an entirely different thing when it consists of literally legislating from the bench and fabricating new law that doesn't exist. I understand that this probably happens gradually over the course of many cases.

All I can think of now are the ways in which it can be abused.

Additionally, it sort of gives a whole new spin on the idea of ignorance of the law not being an excuse. How is one supposed to know and follow a set of laws that don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of a set of judges and lawyers? Are people expected to dig up every relevant course case, read the decisions, and try to piece together the "common law" themselves? And of course hope that they aren't subject to a brand new precedent in their own case?

I'm not an expert but did some Googling:

That "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" is really only the case for common law crimes and their derivatives. These are crimes, such as murder, that offend general communal moral standards. In your case, you knew that killing people is usually wrong, that it's ok in self defense, and you realized that it's not immediately obivous when you can use lethal force, so you figured you should investigate. And you found some answers (compiled from statutes and case law) in the form of jury instructions and a book written by a lawyer. That's exactly how it's supposed to work: after living in our society long enough to become an adult, you know in broad strokes the difference between right and wrong, so you also know when you're in the gray area and need to ask questions.

This stuff goes back to the old Greece and Rome, wherepeople learned the law by participating in the culture and customs of the community. Thus it was unreasonable to believe a person could have avoided learning the. Cicero wrote the following in On the Republic:

"There is a true law, right reason, agreeable to nature, known to all men, constant and eternal, which calls to duty by its precepts, deters from evil by its prohibition. This law cannot be departed from without guilt. Nor is there one law at Rome and another at Athens, one thing now and another afterward; but the same law, unchanging and eternal, binds all races of man and all times."

Plato wrote similarly in Minos:

"What’s right is right and what’s wrong is wrong. And isn’t this believed by everyone ... even among the Persians, and always? ... What is fine, no doubt, is everywhere legislated as fine, and what is shameful as shameful; but not the shameful as fine or the fine as shameful."

For statutory requirements that do not offend general communal moral standards, due process requires notice, particularly when passivity or failure to act constitutes the criminal act. (This stuff is actually touched upon in the recent response to Comm2A's complaint in Draper v Coakley.) Ignorance of the law is an excuse when the law is a little known statutory command that can only be discovered by reading the statute. An exception exists where the crime involves activity that is inherently dangerous.
 
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Thanks for the info. I'm interested in checking out that book. I'm sort of shocked how naive I was about this aspect of law. I knew of common/case law, but I suppose I didn't think it was quite as explicit as this.

This deeply bothers me. Judicial precedent is one thing when it consists of interpretation, influenced by previous decisions and historical context, of existing written law. It is an entirely different thing when it consists of literally legislating from the bench and fabricating new law that doesn't exist. I understand that this probably happens gradually over the course of many cases.

All I can think of now are the ways in which it can be abused.

Additionally, it sort of gives a whole new spin on the idea of ignorance of the law not being an excuse. How is one supposed to know and follow a set of laws that don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of a set of judges and lawyers? Are people expected to dig up every relevant course case, read the decisions, and try to piece together the "common law" themselves? And of course hope that they aren't subject to a brand new precedent in their own case?

It seems to fly in the face of separation of powers, and to an extent, transparency.

Anyways, thanks for listening to me rant.
Blame the fact that America was settled by the British for how odd our legal system is. Most States explicitly include English common law into their body of law, so technically the legislation from the bench valid here includes court cases across the pond heard under the authority of the crown before the revolution.
 
Interesting aspect of self-defense in a dwelling:
If the attacker is not an intruder, for example, if it's his house or he's an invited guest, you have to retreat.

If you invite someone into your house, you have to retreat from him.
There's a lesson in there: don't invite strangers into your house. Kind of like vampires.

However, if you tell him to leave and he doesn't, he's trespassing.
Instant intruder.
But you have to demand that he leave before you empty your magazine.

None of that matters unless you leave him breathing. ;)
 
None of that matters unless you leave him breathing. ;)

I disagree with this so very strongly. While I suspect that you may be saying that a bit tongue in cheek, I think it is very dangerous to repeat things like this - uninformed people might believe you.

First, there will be witnesses whom you did not see. Second, forensics will tell a strong tale about what happened. A single extra shot after the perp stops being a threat can turn justifiable homicide into murder one.

The perp may live or the perp may die, but your goal is not to kill him so that only your side of the story is told. Your goal is to stop the attack and in the process he may die.

You may think that I am quibbling about semantics but the law of self defense depends heavily upon intent.
 
I disagree with this so very strongly. While I suspect that you may be saying that a bit tongue in cheek, I think it is very dangerous to repeat things like this - uninformed people might believe you.

First, there will be witnesses whom you did not see. Second, forensics will tell a strong tale about what happened. A single extra shot after the perp stops being a threat can turn justifiable homicide into murder one.

The perp may live or the perp may die, but your goal is not to kill him so that only your side of the story is told. Your goal is to stop the attack and in the process he may die.

You may think that I am quibbling about semantics but the law of self defense depends heavily upon intent.

Well, the average person isn't going to invite someone into their house and then shoot them unless they do something very bad.
 
Everyone should read Andy's book. It's at the top of my recommended reading list for the NRA Personal Protection courses.
 
Well in the case of an armed robbery going on at a bank in a grocery store... if you are close to the door and can leave easily, but you choose to stay because you believe the bankers and customers with a gun pointed at them are in direct danger of their life.... If you end up shooting and killing the armed robber, where does this fall? It looks like the " Deadly force during citizens Arrest" number 13., but are you taking a chance on that, or is that part a statute somewhere?
 
I'm sure this is a very naive question, but is there any legal distinction between two in the chest and one in the leg? Realistically, I don't think one in the leg would be appropriate in that situation, but is use of a gun always considered Lethal Force in the eyes of the law?
 
You will more than likely face a judge and jury.

Outcome? Loss of lots of money for legal fees and uncertain judgment.


That is the part that bothers me. I have read it hundreds of times, " My weapon is to protect my wife, kids, and myself", anything more than that is putting yourself at risk with the law and stuff.

I just can't not think about a situation like the above. It sucks because that man or woman with a gun pointed to their head have a wife/husband and kids too. And if you doing the "right" thing could save numerous people... it can ultimately put you in a situation where you become broke and end up in jail away from your family from trying to save an innocent person from being killed.. I just don't get it. I mean, with all the mall shootings, etc... to think you could be the one paying the legal price for trying to stop that instead of running out the door that is next to you is crazy. I am not saying everyone should or would try to do something about it.. but I am sure there are a lot of people who would. Granted, in the heat of the moment maybe they aren't thinking " am I legally allowed to shoot this person", maybe they just do what they think is right and "deal" later.

I know other states protect the person in this situation, maybe in Mass they would too, but it sounds like there are a lot more obstacles to go through to be cleared.

All and all, I am new to this and I hope to take many many courses on self defense laws, ccw courses, etc... so I am sure I will learn more.

Sigh
 
I'm sure this is a very naive question, but is there any legal distinction between two in the chest and one in the leg? Realistically, I don't think one in the leg would be appropriate in that situation, but is use of a gun always considered Lethal Force in the eyes of the law?

Shooting someone will always result in assault and battery with a dangerous weapon (if criminal charges are filed). A gun is always gonna be lethal force. 2 in the chest or one in the leg, all the same. What gets argued in court may sway a jury, but at the onset, its all the same.
 
That is the part that bothers me. I have read it hundreds of times, " My weapon is to protect my wife, kids, and myself", anything more than that is putting yourself at risk with the law and stuff.

I just can't not think about a situation like the above. It sucks because that man or woman with a gun pointed to their head have a wife/husband and kids too. And if you doing the "right" thing could save numerous people... it can ultimately put you in a situation where you become broke and end up in jail away from your family from trying to save an innocent person from being killed.. I just don't get it. I mean, with all the mall shootings, etc... to think you could be the one paying the legal price for trying to stop that instead of running out the door that is next to you is crazy. I am not saying everyone should or would try to do something about it.. but I am sure there are a lot of people who would. Granted, in the heat of the moment maybe they aren't thinking " am I legally allowed to shoot this person", maybe they just do what they think is right and "deal" later.

I know other states protect the person in this situation, maybe in Mass they would too, but it sounds like there are a lot more obstacles to go through to be cleared.

All and all, I am new to this and I hope to take many many courses on self defense laws, ccw courses, etc... so I am sure I will learn more.

Sigh

Len is correct, and at the very least youd be looking at lots of $$$ to pay for a lawyer.
But,
You stop an armed robbery with deadly force at the local bodega, youre gonna fall under a whole bunch more scrutiny.
You stop a large scale shooting at your local mall using deadly force, you will be hailed as a hero.
 
Len is correct, and at the very least youd be looking at lots of $$$ to pay for a lawyer.
But,
You stop an armed robbery with deadly force at the local bodega, youre gonna fall under a whole bunch more scrutiny.
You stop a large scale shooting at your local mall using deadly force, you will be hailed as a hero.

Yeah,
The part that's scary is the bodega one. I would say the odds of that happening are higher than the mall one, but then again if you are inside when an armed robbery is happening inside a 800 square foot convenient store, chances are your life is directly in danger; unless you become a sitting duck.
 
That is the part that bothers me. I have read it hundreds of times, " My weapon is to protect my wife, kids, and myself", anything more than that is putting yourself at risk with the law and stuff.

I just can't not think about a situation like the above. It sucks because that man or woman with a gun pointed to their head have a wife/husband and kids too. And if you doing the "right" thing could save numerous people... it can ultimately put you in a situation where you become broke and end up in jail away from your family from trying to save an innocent person from being killed.. I just don't get it. I mean, with all the mall shootings, etc... to think you could be the one paying the legal price for trying to stop that instead of running out the door that is next to you is crazy. I am not saying everyone should or would try to do something about it.. but I am sure there are a lot of people who would. Granted, in the heat of the moment maybe they aren't thinking " am I legally allowed to shoot this person", maybe they just do what they think is right and "deal" later.

I know other states protect the person in this situation, maybe in Mass they would too, but it sounds like there are a lot more obstacles to go through to be cleared.

All and all, I am new to this and I hope to take many many courses on self defense laws, ccw courses, etc... so I am sure I will learn more.

Sigh

You might want to consider taking the NRA Personal Protection courses, the legal aspects of a self-defense shooting are a good part of those courses, as opposed to a defensive handgun course where you learn shooting skills almost exclusively. I do teach these and throw in a goodly amount of MA law into those courses.

I fully empathize with your question here.

I do business with a small credit union, not a mega bank. I am friendly with all their staff, know the cu president fairly well (he's a gun owner too). After I walked into the cu 2 hours after an armed robbery, I discussed this matter with the cu manager (a person who was leaning towards learning to shoot) and subsequently handed off a letter outlining the type of scenario you describe asking for legal clarification to our county DA (a good friend). He had an ADA respond in writing . . . bottom line is be a good witness and call 911 ONLY! BTW, he was on the BOD of said cu at the time and also knew all their staff.

MA isn't other states. You won't be given the keys to the city, but you are more likely to end up behind a set of bars, lose your job and be vilified for your actions.
 
You might want to consider taking the NRA Personal Protection courses, the legal aspects of a self-defense shooting are a good part of those courses, as opposed to a defensive handgun course where you learn shooting skills almost exclusively. I do teach these and throw in a goodly amount of MA law into those courses.

I fully empathize with your question here.

I do business with a small credit union, not a mega bank. I am friendly with all their staff, know the cu president fairly well (he's a gun owner too). After I walked into the cu 2 hours after an armed robbery, I discussed this matter with the cu manager (a person who was leaning towards learning to shoot) and subsequently handed off a letter outlining the type of scenario you describe asking for legal clarification to our county DA (a good friend). He had an ADA respond in writing . . . bottom line is be a good witness and call 911 ONLY! BTW, he was on the BOD of said cu at the time and also knew all their staff.

MA isn't other states. You won't be given the keys to the city, but you are more likely to end up behind a set of bars, lose your job and be vilified for your actions.

Len,

Where do you offer your courses? I am very interested to signing up depending on location. My appointment with Chief isn't until end of April, so my LTC is probably a 2-3 months away, but getting started on the classes would be an excellent way to pass the time.
 
Len,

Where do you offer your courses? I am very interested to signing up depending on location. My appointment with Chief isn't until end of April, so my LTC is probably a 2-3 months away, but getting started on the classes would be an excellent way to pass the time.

An up-to-date list of courses and dates are always found here:
http://home.comcast.net/~safety-instructor/site/?/event/

One class/month at a time are posted in the Training sub-forum here.

Descriptions, etc. are found in the various hot-links along the left side of the above webpage.

Until whatever year the Mansfield F&G building is finished and occupiable, classes are currently held at the Sharon Historical Society Museum, range work at Mansfield F&G.
 
Well in the case of an armed robbery going on at a bank in a grocery store... if you are close to the door and can leave easily, but you choose to stay because you believe the bankers and customers with a gun pointed at them are in direct danger of their life.... If you end up shooting and killing the armed robber, where does this fall? It looks like the " Deadly force during citizens Arrest" number 13., but are you taking a chance on that, or is that part a statute somewhere?

If a third party is legally justified in using deadly force to protect themselves, then you are legally justified in using deadly force to protect them. In this case, you would be legally justified in using deadly force.

You can expect, however, in most any use of deadly force here in MA, to be arrested. You might be brought before a grand jury. You might be charged.

The reality is that most bank robberies are note jobs where no weapon is displayed. And I'm not going to risk my life to protect the bank's insurance company's money. Unless they are actually shooting people, I will be using Nike-fu and getting out of Dodge.
 
If a third party is legally justified in using deadly force to protect themselves, then you are legally justified in using deadly force to protect them. In this case, you would be legally justified in using deadly force.

Is that from a statute or case law?

Thanks for info.

And I agree, I am not getting involved in a note job. I was more talking about a man/woman holding a gun in a bankers face or aiming it patrons.
 
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