MA Deadly Force Law

[M1911]

I'm sure this is a very naive question, but is there any legal distinction between two in the chest and one in the leg? Realistically, I don't think one in the leg would be appropriate in that situation, but is use of a gun always considered Lethal Force in the eyes of the law?

Lethal force is lethal force. You can't shoot someone gently. The only time you are legally justified in using deadly force is if you, or some other innocent, is about to die. If they are about to die, what you are doing shooting them in the leg?

Shoot center of mass (upper chest). If that doesn't stop them, consider the head. Legs are actually pretty hard to hit (they are small and they move a lot) and shooting someone in the leg probably won't stop them.

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Have there been any cases where someone (a civilian) was involved in a shooting here and didn't wind up in court over it? I honestly don't know.

Yes. That doesn't mean that they didn't end up spending a bunch of money on a lawyer, however. Lots of legal work can end up being required to convince the police department and/or DA not to press charges.

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Is that from a statute or case law?

Case law. Read: http://www.amazon.com/The-Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable/dp/0988867702

 

[M1911]

And I agree, I am not getting involved in a note job. I was more talking about a man/woman holding a gun in a bankers face or aiming it patrons.

So, they have a gun in a banker's face. You shoot at them. Guess what their first reaction to your gunshot will be? They will tense their fists, inadvertently pulling the trigger. Congrats, your reaction just resulted in the banker being shot in the face.

You really need to get some deadly force training and think this through a lot more clearly.

Your LTC does not make you a cop.

 

[ZJPierce]

Lethal force is lethal force. You can't shoot someone gently. The only time you are legally justified in using deadly force is if you, or some other innocent, is about to die. If they are about to die, what you are doing shooting them in the leg?

Shoot center of mass (upper chest). If that doesn't stop them, consider the head. Legs are actually pretty hard to hit (they are small and they move a lot) and shooting someone in the leg probably won't stop them.

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Yes. That doesn't mean that they didn't end up spending a bunch of money on a lawyer, however. Lots of legal work can end up being required to convince the police department and/or DA not to press charges.

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Case law. Read: http://www.amazon.com/The-Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable/dp/0988867702

Already ordered it this morning... Cannot wait!
Thanks

 

[M1911]

I suggest that you consider quality training: http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-40/

 

[VetteGirlMA]

I was on a jury trial involving a bank robbery. The robber slipped the teller a note and said he had a dangerous weapon and to give him the money. He didn't pull a weapon just threatened it in the robbery note. It all went down very calmly and cooly with customers in the bank doing their normal business not even knowing the bank was being robbed. Anyone could have walked into the bank with an armory hanging off of them and they would have never known the place was being robbed until after the robber left the bank. I saw the bank video from every single camera angle which was evidence at the trial, no one other than a few tellers and the bank manager knew what was going on.

 

[ZJPierce]

So, they have a gun in a banker's face. You shoot at them. Guess what their first reaction to your gunshot will be? They will tense their fists, inadvertently pulling the trigger. Congrats, your reaction just resulted in the banker being shot in the face.

You really need to get some deadly force training and think this through a lot more clearly.

Your LTC does not make you a cop.

Well wait a second, I am not outlining exactly what or when I would have made action. In previous posts, I stated I have not done any training in relation to this(deadly force training, ccw training, self defense training, etc..., but was asking on the pure basis of legality. I stated I plan to take NUMEROUS hands on training before I get my LTC in ~3 months. I may have implied I would shoot at the moment in time there was a gun in the face of someone, but I meant that to be a pre-curser to signalling the "legality of taking action".

I don't think it hurts to start thinking about these scenarios early on in my maturity of gun ownership or CCW, and asking questions. By prefacing all of my questions and inquiries with I AM very new to CCW, Self Defense, Gun laws, etc... I want to make it clear I do lack the experience to be in a situation like this, and would not start to carry for personal protection until I felt I was ready and took all the necessary steps to be well rounded, such as the courses I plan to take prior to getting my LTC.

I apologize if I came off as taking the situation lightly and not thinking clearly.

Thanks for you information nonetheless.

 

[GPP]

I was on a jury trial involving a bank robbery. The robber slipped the teller a note and said he had a dangerous weapon and to give him the money. He didn't pull a weapon just threatened it in the robbery note. It all went down very calmly and cooly with customers in the bank doing their normal business not even knowing the bank was being robbed. Anyone could have walked into the bank with an armory hanging off of them and they would have never known the place was being robbed until after the robber left the bank. I saw the bank video from every single camera angle which was evidence at the trial, no one other than a few tellers and the bank manager knew what was going on.

Thats pretty much how they all go down. Bank employees know the drill, they all have specific protocols for this stuff. I think we will still see the occasional Phillips and Matarsareanu esque bank robberies, but note passing is the easist way

 

[ZJPierce]

I suggest that you consider quality training: http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-40/

Thank you, I will look into this for sure.

Also, I understand having a LTC does not make you a COP. But being a civilian with a LTC can put you in a situation as I described, and I was just looking for some information on the legality of taking action. Not saying I personally would or would not take action... but it would be nice to know any case or statutes related to a scenario like this.

Thanks.

 

[GPP]

Well wait a second, I am not outlining exactly what or when I would have made action. In previous posts, I stated I have not done any training in relation to this(deadly force training, ccw training, self defense training, etc..., but was asking on the pure basis of legality. I stated I plan to take NUMEROUS hands on training before I get my LTC in ~3 months. I may have implied I would shoot at the moment in time there was a gun in the face of someone, but I meant that to be a pre-curser to signalling the "legality of taking action".

I don't think it hurts to start thinking about these scenarios early on in my maturity of gun ownership or CCW, and asking questions. By prefacing all of my questions and inquiries with I AM very new to CCW, Self Defense, Gun laws, etc... I want to make it clear I do lack the experience to be in a situation like this, and would not start to carry for personal protection until I felt I was ready and took all the necessary steps to be well rounded, such as the courses I plan to take prior to getting my LTC.

I apologize if I came off as taking the situation lightly and not thinking clearly.

Thanks for you information nonetheless.

The best class/training you can take (aside from some decent shooting classes) would be one dealing with situational awareness.

 

[M1911]

My point was that you do need to think things through. If someone has a gun pointed at a victim and you shoot, they are probably going to shoot the victim. The only way to avoid that would be a central nervous system shot. Can you make that head shot perfectly? If not, then perhaps taking the shot isn't the right thing to do.

Here is another situation to consider. You get out of your car at the strip mall, as you walk towards the building, someone bursts out the door running in terror. A few seconds later, another person bursts out the door in pursuit carrying a gun. What do you do?

What have you just witnessed?

1) The store owner pursuing a thief?

2) A jealous husband pursuing his wife's lover?

3) An undercover cop pursuing a suspect?

Intervening in a third party situations is fraught with danger, both physical and legal. I won't say that I would never intervene, but it certainly would not be my first reaction.

 

[GPP]

My point was that you do need to think things through. If someone has a gun pointed at a victim and you shoot, they are probably going to shoot the victim. The only way to avoid that would be a central nervous system shot. Can you make that head shot perfectly? If not, then perhaps taking the shot isn't the right thing to do.

Here is another situation to consider. You get out of your car at the strip mall, as you walk towards the building, someone bursts out the door running in terror. A few seconds later, another person bursts out the door in pursuit carrying a gun. What do you do?

What have you just witnessed?

1) The store owner pursuing a thief?

2) A jealous husband pursuing his wife's lover?

3) An undercover cop pursuing a suspect?

Intervening in a third party situations is fraught with danger, both physical and legal. I won't say that I would never intervene, but it certainly would not be my first reaction.

Hmmmm it seems all three of your pursuees in that scenario could be cops, so its best to ignore them all and move on, nothing to see here folks!

 

[VetteGirlMA]

Thats pretty much how they all go down. Bank employees know the drill, they all have specific protocols for this stuff. I think we will still see the occasional Phillips and Matarsareanu esque bank robberies, but note passing is the easist way

It was over very fast too, literally 1 - 1.5 minutes to stuff an envelope full of money and the robber left. The robber even knew enough to swat the bait money (traceable bills) from the tellers hand before she put it into the envelope. It was sad though to see the effect that this has on peoples lives AFTER the crime was committed. The teller quit her job, and never went back because she felt so afraid. She was barely 5 feet tall and no match for a 6 foot tall bank robber. The robber wasn't coming to the bank to rob the customers, just the bank.

The one takeaway I did get from the trial is the importance of situational awareness. Being able to tell when someone gets inside one's boundary and is a potential threat. The tellers just had no clue until it was too late.

 

[GPP]

It was over very fast too, literally 1 - 1.5 minutes to stuff an envelope full of money and the robber left. The robber even knew enough to swat the bait money (traceable bills) from the tellers hand before she put it into the envelope. It was sad though to see the effect that this has on peoples lives AFTER the crime was committed. The teller quit her job, and never went back because she felt so afraid. She was barely 5 feet tall and no match for a 6 foot tall bank robber. The robber wasn't coming to the bank to rob the customers, just the bank.

The one takeaway I did get from the trial is the importance of situational awareness. Being able to tell when someone gets inside one's boundary and is a potential threat. The tellers just had no clue until it was too late.

Blam! Situational awareness rears its ugly head! Youre right tho, proper mindset when out and about is key.
Too bad for the teller tho, after all its just a note. She may have gone to Brown tho, so that would explain it.

 

[mark056]

Thank you, I will look into this for sure.

Also, I understand having a LTC does not make you a COP. But being a civilian with a LTC can put you in a situation as I described, and I was just looking for some information on the legality of taking action. Not saying I personally would or would not take action... but it would be nice to know any case or statutes related to a scenario like this.

Thanks.

I endorse what M1911 says, he knows what he is talking about and in the meantime pick up the classic text: "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. It's a good place to start. Also pay particular attention to what LenS says about Mass Gun Law, he's forgotten more Mass Gun Law than most attorneys in Mass ever knew about the subject, and GPP will not steer you wrong from the street cop perspective, he's a stand up guy who knows the real deal. With guys like that responding to your posts, you can take whatever they say to the bank, they are not keyboard commandos. They know the deal in their respective area of expertise, they have either the: training, the knowledge or the experience. You got lucky when they decided to reply to this thread.

Good luck on your quest, and remember the way you think things should be aren't necessarily the way things are.

 

[PATRON]

There are a lot of factors that go into throwing lead into a crowded area, unless the bad guy is already shooting,and you have no other choice you should not be drawing the firearm. It also takes a lot of training, and a certian mind set.Even with all that you really don't know how your going to react until it happens,and then you hope that your training kicks in.I have been shot at twice, or should I say I walk into a shoot out. In both cases I drew my firearm,and got ready to return fire but I was able to get the hell out of there instead of returning fire and that's what I did.Don't be in a hurry to play James Bond you might not like the outcome.I have a little experience on this subject being that for 13 years I was the Firearms instructor for Brinks armored car company.

 

[ZJPierce]

Thank you to all, this has been some great information and now I have a lot of places to start.

It looks like I have a couple of books to read, and some great leads on both classroom courses as well as hands on courses.

Enjoy your day!

 

[fishgutzy]

And the kicker? If you train in martial arts, DA's and judges have held it against defendants claiming self defense. They say crap like the training should have taught them to use less than lethal force. Which is a lot of crap.
Martial arts teach to use the minimum force necessary to be able to walk away. But if someone ain't gonna give up the attack, sometimes stopping them permanently is the only way to stop.
You can bet that when that mother and father tackled an intruder who had a knife to the daughter's throat, had they killed him, Martha Coakley, then county DA would have sent them to a grand jury on murder charges. (jury would never indict though. They are smarter than the law) Turned out the guy had also murdered a woman in NJ, another near zero gun rights states. But he never killed anyone in his home state of NC. A lot more armed homes there.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Also, I understand having a LTC does not make you a COP. But being a civilian with a LTC can put you in a situation as I described, and I was just looking for some information on the legality of taking action. Not saying I personally would or would not take action... but it would be nice to know any case or statutes related to a scenario like this.

Thanks.

The cu I referred to above . . . the tellers, manager and other admin always wave/say hi whenever I walk in, they are very friendly to all their customers. The day I walked in and saw a sea of sad faces, I knew something was wrong . . . that's when they were robbed 2 hours earlier (by a note). That motivated my asking questions wrt what I should do (much like you did here). I also looked around and realized that there is NO "cover" in the entire public area, no safe direction to shoot (no bullet-proof glass/steel in the walls in front of the tellers, etc.) that wouldn't risk an innocent getting hurt.

A second time (new story), I had 2 errands to do and thought about going to the cu first, but decided to do the other one first. As I walk up to the cu, there is "police tape" surrounding the front door and a couple of cruisers in the driveway. They were just robbed at gunpoint this time (serial robber, hit a number of banks and a home invasion - which got him caught). Had I gone to the cu first, I probably would have been right in the middle of it!

The best class/training you can take (aside from some decent shooting classes) would be one dealing with situational awareness.

QFT!

It was over very fast too, literally 1 - 1.5 minutes to stuff an envelope full of money and the robber left. The robber even knew enough to swat the bait money (traceable bills) from the tellers hand before she put it into the envelope. It was sad though to see the effect that this has on peoples lives AFTER the crime was committed. The teller quit her job, and never went back because she felt so afraid. She was barely 5 feet tall and no match for a 6 foot tall bank robber. The robber wasn't coming to the bank to rob the customers, just the bank.

The one takeaway I did get from the trial is the importance of situational awareness. Being able to tell when someone gets inside one's boundary and is a potential threat. The tellers just had no clue until it was too late.

It definitely takes its toll on the employees, whether a note or a gun.

Also realize that unlike the movies/TV, the perp usually is moving the gun around if they pull a gun, not merely putting it in the ear of a teller.

 

[CTpatriot]

missing a two guy hold up at Wendy's by being 5 minutes early and a bank job 5 minutes late, all within one month, makes you think the scenario over and about spare ammo. my plan is usually make for an exit because i am not packing enough caliber and ammo for an all out fight.

 

[dove]

Just to chime back in real quick, I took Andrew Branca's course and I recommend it wholeheartedly. What's written and where isn't as important as how self-defense law actually works in practice. Andrew's class did an excellent job at attaining his goal: leaving the students with confidence in understanding how to think and reason about self-defense legal scenarios with respect to how it practically plays out.

At the end of the day, the specifics of any situation are only a tiny part of the story, and trying to compare them against some clear-cut text is a nice fantasy but of little real-world use. Instead, I have learned the importance of being able to reason about new situations and the critical role that articulation plays in self-defense law.

 

[free]

Your LTC does not make you a cop.

This above, is the most succinct advice of the whole thread. THANKS!