Ma**h*** considering vaca home w/ siblings

[namedpipes]

My sibs and I are looking at a property in Maine to go in together.

If we decide to go ahead with it, I'd likely spend as much as a couple months per year there. I'd expect no issue with a non resident permit - just paperwork and meet the requirements.

Where my time there would be less than 50%, I would continue to work while I'm there (my work is not location dependent).

In terms of Mass and Maine, could I maintain a dual residency and carry / own as a resident in both locations? I would dearly love to maintain a collection there as some of the sillier rules on what we can't have in Mass would not apply.

If that is NOT possible, can I still maintain a collection there (that would not be transported back and forth to the Mass home) on the basis of a non-resident permit?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You can maintain residency in each place for part of the year, however, you will find that a driver's license or LTC with an address in which the sale is taking place is the de-facto standard most FFL's follow. Few will accept your explanation of dual residency when all you have to show a Maine FFL is paperwork listing a MA residence.

 

[Madball13]

Pretty sure that won't fly. Let's say your looking to get a hunting permit which state do you claim residence in? i can guarantee you an issue if a maine warden asks for a license and a drivers license and they get conflicting states. How would you register your vehicles? Same issue will apply if you have Maine registered vehicles with a mass license.

 

[namedpipes]

So sticking to the non-resident permit for the moment, say I am a part owner of the place in Maine, have a current Mass LTC & C&R w/ Mass address and I get a Maine NR permit.

Can I leave guns behind when I return to Mass? (secured in a safe)

If I can, and I purchased a gun in Maine or delivered to Maine, it would have to comply with whatever laws/regulations Maine places on guns, not the laws/regulations Mass does?

 

[drgrant]

So sticking to the non-resident permit for the moment, say I am a part owner of the place in Maine, have a current Mass LTC & C&R w/ Mass address and I get a Maine NR permit.

Can I leave guns behind when I return to Mass? (secured in a safe)

Yes. Maine may not even have a storage standard that's remotely that strict. IMO keeping them in a
safe is likely a peace of mind issue and not a legal one up there.

If I can, and I purchased a gun in Maine or delivered to Maine, it would have to comply with whatever laws/regulations Maine places on guns, not the laws/regulations Mass does?

If you're not a Maine resident you'll still be (mostly) bound to the same restrictions on what you can buy as you are in MA. One exception would be if, say you built (eg, built off a bare or limited frame) an "evil features" AR or AK, etc. you could keep this in Maine but would not be able to bring it into MA, obviously. Strangely enough, you could not buy a similar gun from an ME dealer, or at least you're not supposed to be able to, according to an obscure chunk of the US code pertaining to FFL transactions.

As long as you're an MA resident you're still (mostly) crippled by the stupid laws we have here due to federal laws reinforcing a lot of them, in an indirect manner. The only way to be completely free of this is to not be an MA resident.

FWIW, if you do a search on "Residency" on NES you can find out what quantifies residency, but prepare to get a
headache in the process. There is a readily apparent disagreement in many of these threads as to what
constitutes residency. IMO read those threads and draw your own conclusions.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

prepare to get a headache in the process.

Amen to that.

IMO read those threads and draw your own conclusions.

Yeah, there's really no obvious clear answer to the question.

 

[namedpipes]

OK, I've popped about 1500mg of Tylenol and will read up this evening.

In the meantime, I think you're saying that when I buy something from a dealer when out of Mass, it is supposed to comply with the law in the state of my residence in addition to the law of the location the transfer takes place.

Perhaps if I bought something in a FTF or at a non-Mass show that does not apply? Then I could maintain those items at the Maine residence. And also (obviously) I can't ever take it home to Mass.

Permanently departing Mass is in my future, but it can't happen until real estate comes up enough to regain the equity lost in the last couple years. In other words, 2 to 5 years from now.

 

[KMaurer]

There seem to be two distinct problems getting dual residency to work for you. The first, and most significant will be getting an FFL who understands the BATFE rules and is willing to make the sale. Face-to-face sales minimize this problem. The other one is complying with state laws in each state. If you're staying in the vacation property for a couple of months at a time, that would appear to fall within the guidelines provided by BATFE.

Ken

 

[Joe G]

Isn't the problem mainly with handguns? From my (limited) understanding, you can buy long guns out of state with no problem, either thru a dealer or FTF. But if you want to buy a handgun it has to be from a dealer and go from the out of state dealer to an in-state dealer to you. So even if you buy in ME the pistol would have to go to MA even if you wanted to keep it in ME.

Do I have that right? Or is that at least a good enough understanding to keep me out of Club Fed?

 

[drgrant]

Perhaps if I bought something in a FTF or at a non-Mass show that does not apply? Then I could maintain those items at the Maine residence. And also (obviously) I can't ever take it home to Mass.

The thing is in those circumstance, if you're not really an ME resident you are likely breaking federal law in terms of doing so. (according to federal law, an individual is only allowed to do FTF transfers/sales with other individuals from the same state that they are a resident of. )

Again, this all hinges on your residency.

And to address the 2nd part of the question, some of that may not be true depending on what the item is. For example, if you were legally a maine resident for a year, lets say, then you "moved back" to MA, you could bring in any non-compliant handguns, etc, that you had bought while you were a maine resident. (as long as these guns don't violate the AWB, or their magazines).

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Isn't the problem mainly with handguns? From my (limited) understanding, you can buy long guns out of state with no problem, either thru a dealer or FTF.

If you buy a long gun on an FTF somewhere while not being a resident of that state, you are violating federal law. The exception for long guns is for
dealers only- and even then, that dealer is supposed to "obey" the stupid regulations that apply in the buyer's state of residence; which means that an
MA resident could not go to ME and buy a new "ban config" rifle even if he was to keep that rifle in ME; or at least the dealer isn't supposed to sell it to
him if it's not compatible with his residency state's regulations.

Yes, the handgun thing is arguably worse; basically it forces any person buying a handgun outside their state of residence to transfer the gun at least twice. (once from the
foreign dealer to your local dealer in MA, and then from him to you. Of course, in MA, because of the handgun compliance bullshit, if the gun is anything nice it will usually
"bounce" and get sent back to the "foreign" dealer.

-Mike

 

[namedpipes]

...MA resident could not go to ME and buy a new "ban config" rifle even if he was to keep that rifle in ME; or at least the dealer isn't supposed to sell it to
him if it's not compatible with his residency state's regulations.

Yes, the handgun thing is arguably worse; basically it forces any person buying a handgun outside their state of residence to transfer the gun at least twice....

Not to but, having a C&R allows interstate transactions. This doesn't include F2F in another state?

If I exercised the C&R to buy something too cool for Mass but fitting the C&R requirements, could THAT item be legally acquired and legally stored at the Maine residence?


What I'm trying to find out is, is there a legal way to leverage a non Mass home ownership, to have things that wouldn't be allowed in Mass. Not wanting to depart my family, I'm interested in legal methods only. If I can't, then I can't and I'll just wait until the time is ripe to leave.

 

[jdubois]

If I exercised the C&R to buy something too cool for Mass but fitting the C&R requirements, could THAT item be legally acquired and legally stored at the Maine residence?

Yes, in the case of a C&R acquisition, it is an FFL to FFL transfer. So the federal and state laws limiting what you can purchase and what they can sell you are greatly reduced. However, storing your C&R guns away from the address listed on your C&R license for an extended period of time is a no-no.

 

[namedpipes]

About the time the idealism of youth washes off, this state ceases to be a fun place to live.

As you noted when we met the other day, that was quite some time ago for me!

 

[drgrant]

Not to but, having a C&R allows interstate transactions. This doesn't include F2F in another state?

Yes, if you have a C+R you could buy/sell C+R guns wherever, as long as you follow the procedures and
limitations for doing that.

If I exercised the C&R to buy something too cool for Mass but fitting the C&R requirements

If you think about it, there really isn't anything that meets that definition.. Anything that's C+R eligible is probably legal in MA anyways, so what difference does it make? (Unless it's like an NFA device like a C+R machinegun, but that's a whole other ball of wax, and even those are legal in MA if you have a green card. FWIW there IS a wallhack for owning NFA devices in other states but it is a pain in the ass; but I know several people who maintain NFA devices outside of MA using this. I digress.... )

, could THAT item be legally acquired and legally stored at the Maine residence?

As Jdubois states it would probably be wise to not have "bound book" guns stored in another location that isn't listed on your license.

What I'm trying to find out is, is there a legal way to leverage a non Mass home ownership, to have things that wouldn't be allowed in Mass. Not wanting to depart my family, I'm interested in legal methods only. If I can't, then I can't and I'll just wait until the time is ripe to leave.

There is a way to do this, but again, you must satisfy residency requirements. (which, as previously stated, are often vague, contradictory, ambigious, and often violate logic and reason. ) . I know folks with seasonal housing that do this legally (or at least in a way that sounds legal to ME ) but they are living out of the other location long enough that if challenged, under most circumstances, they could provide enough indicators of residency for that other state, and thus be "legal".

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

If you think about it, there really isn't anything that meets that definition.. Anything that's C+R eligible is probably legal in MA anyways, so what difference does it make?

I'm not following your logic. Since only a small fraction of C&R eligible handguns were in MA before October 21, 1998, I'd say the majority of them meet the "too cool for MA" definition.

 

[drgrant]

I'm not following your logic. Since only a small fraction of C&R eligible handguns were in MA before October 21, 1998, I'd say the majority of them meet the "too cool for MA" definition.

Yeah, but if you have a C+R that law becomes completely meaningless because you can legally just drive right around it as far as C+R purchases are concerned. C+R = not handgun purveyor = end.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

Yeah, but if you have a C+R that law becomes completely meaningless because you can legally just drive right around it as far as C+R purchases are concerned. C+R = not handgun purveyor = end.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. His original post about keeping a collection that he can't easily have here in MA but can easily have in Maine makes no sense with a C&R because anything he can get in Maine he can pretty easily get here.

 

[drgrant]

Ok, I see what you're saying now. His original post about keeping a collection that he can't easily have here in MA but can easily have in Maine makes no sense with a C&R because anything he can get in Maine he can pretty easily get here.

Exactly. I will admit, however, that being a Maine C+R is probably somewhat, or slightly easier than MA, because there are some dealers who are a pain in the ass that won't do transfers to MA C+Rs, but IMO those are usually the exception rather than the rule. Most FFL holders have no problem recognizing that a Type 03 from MA is still a valid license, despite the fact that the bearer lives in a communist state.

-Mike

 

[namedpipes]

Ok, I see what you're saying now. His original post about keeping a collection that he can't easily have here in MA but can easily have in Maine makes no sense with a C&R because anything he can get in Maine he can pretty easily get here.

Well, except for the wife factor.

MUCH more difficult to get around than the state laws...

 

[drgrant]

Well, except for the wife factor.

MUCH more difficult to get around than the state laws...

Wives/SWMBOs often can make the MA laws look minor in comparison.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

Wives/SWMBOs often can make the MA laws look minor in comparison.

There is a strict "don't ask, don't tell" policy in place at my house

 

[Jeff_JMB]

Make sure you understand Maine's income tax laws before you do anything that'll make you a part year resident in the eyes of Maine Revenue Services. Or, before you do anything that produces income while you're in the state.

 

[namedpipes]

Yeah, but Mass won't HAVE an income tax by then!

I haven't yet looked into that, but I would not be surprised if I have to split my tax payments, part to Mass and part to Maine. Are you suggesting the tax burden would be higher overall, or simply divided between the two?

 

[Jeff_JMB]

I'll give you an example... Let's say a non-resident works in Maine, but his spouse lives and works in their state of residence. The state of Maine taxes them on their entire combined income, including the part earned outside of Maine by the spouse who never sets foot in the state.

 

[namedpipes]

I just googled this and it shows Maine is a tad bit greedy on taxes as you suggest, though by following very complicated rules it can be held down a bit.

Well, of course, the trick would then be to never so much as do a single minute of work while I'm vacationing. That would blow my grand scheme to have a cooler collection, but it seems I'm thwarted in that anyway.

Thanks for the heads up on taxes - I'll certainly look at that closer before committing.

 

[KMaurer]

Wives having been mentioned here, let me through another complication to consider before you jump into this scheme. I assume that you and your siblings are all on excellent terms and don't envision any possible future disagreements that might sour this arrangement. If so, you're living in fantasy land. There are few things that can ruin family relations quicker and more permanently than financial arrangements such as this. As much as you might deny the possibility of ever needing it, sit down with a lawyer before any of you signs anything or pays $1, and work out a detailed legally binding agreement covering joint expenses, who gets to use it when and for how long, what happens if one of you decides he or she needs to bail out sometime in the future, and a million other things your attorney will point out.

It will be a pain in the neck, and you might all consider it to be a waste of time and money, but it will save you from all sorts of nasty developments in the future. I make it an ironclad rule to do financial dealings with family in one of only two ways: either as I described above, or making what I consider to be a gift without any expectation of ever getting anything in return.In the later case, I usually get paid back or otherwise get a worthwhile return for my "investment", but I never consider it to have been an investment and treat the return as nothing more than a happy surprise rather than an entitlement. Works out infinitely better all around.

Ken

 

[eisenhow]

I assume that you and your siblings are all on excellent terms and don't envision any possible future disagreements that might sour this arrangement. If so, you're living in fantasy land. There are few things that can ruin family relations quicker and more permanently than financial arrangements such as this. As much as you might deny the possibility of ever needing it, sit down with a lawyer before any of you signs anything or pays $1, and work out a detailed legally binding agreement covering joint expenses, who gets to use it when and for how long, what happens if one of you decides he or she needs to bail out sometime in the future, and a million other things your attorney will point out.
Ken

+1 I've been wanting to say something along these lines but have chosen to keep my mouth shut. I love my brother but I would never get into anything involving property ownership or money. Putting all the possible scenarios into writing is a great idea. What happens if one person gets ill and wants out? What happen if one person passes away, does their share pass to their children or back to the siblings. What happens if one person falls on hard time and can't keep up their share of the expenses? Having this all worked out ahead of time is a big plus.

 

[namedpipes]

Nanh, we squabble like... um... siblings.

Due to some not well thought through language in a will, we will have those challenges regardless of whether or not we also buy this place.

This is not a once in a lifetime opp, but a nice place and would suit our varied interests well.

 

[securityboy]

$85 a year and you can have an LLC out of your Maine Location...And you (as president of the corporation) can buy all the "toys" you can imagine...

*you may be "limited" to dealing with dealers who also deal in NFA guns, because most regular FFL's probably wont understand the LLC thing any better than they would "dual residency" where as most NFA dealers have probably dealt with corporate, trust & LLC sales before...but thats just a good excuse to have to buy some MGs and suppressors...