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MA: Identifying Pre-Ban Glock Mags
- Thread starter MarkM
- Start date
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
BillO
NES Member
It said do not sell and had another line: "LEO Only".Why would they get them then mark them "do not sell"?![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
icyclefar
NES Member
I think the world is a better place if no one knows.![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
+1000..........etc!
looking at the photo on the first page i see that all the mags i bought here in ma with my glock 22 are post ban if that was the case than how were they able to sell them to me
oh and + 1 to icyclefar
oh and + 1 to icyclefar
kevin9
NES Member
Reading the whole thread you will see that the pictures in the first post are incorrect. There are references to other pictures (here for one) that claim exactly the opposite, as well as individuals who know when they bought their mags yet they may or may not match the pictures. As oar says Glock does not even know how to tell (except for the much newer ambi-mags).
thank for that info
Dealers are exempt from the law somehow (because they can sell mags to LE) but most don't care or don't know the difference... Some also will have varying standards on what they consider preban, postban, etc, and some consider the issue a farce and don't care. If MA law obeyed the old federal standard (which required very SPECIFIC requirements in determining mag provenance... The problem is that the MA AWB did not adapt that part of the federal AWB; so that definition is irrelevant in the context of MA. Nobody really knows what the "determination standards" would be in MA, because IIRC, there has not been a prosecution on this law, or at least I've been unable to find one. I found some cases where "large capacity" mags were involved, but they all involved criminals without LTCs where mere possession of any "large capacity" mag was illegal (and prosecuted under a completely separate law- one not related to the AWB at all. )
The worst thing you can do in this state as a gun owner is to rely on a dealer, or even a LEO or a PD for accuracy on MA gun laws and the intricacies. Given that, I encourage folks to look at the laws and draw their own conclusions; and if something doesn't appear clear, get a lawyer or talk to one that is well versed in MA gun law.
This issue around here is in the realm of
![[horse]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/026.gif "Beat a dead horse [horse]")
. IMO the bottom line is people should use their judgment/intuition when it comes to mag provenance issues. A lawyer would say "if you have any reason to believe a given "large capacity" mag is post ban, get rid of it or do not
buy it" .
-Mike
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calsdad
NES Member
Freakin Glock mags and MA high cap rules again
I know there are other threads on this site that deal with this subject - but I figured I would ask again since I can't seem to find all the info wrapped up in one place. I know this is a can of worms - and is once again another example of how convoluted and screwed up the MA laws are.
Questions:
1) The way I understand the MA law is that high capacity magazines (anything over 10 rounds) is illegal to own , even with a Class A license - UNLESS - those magazines were manufactured prior to the Assault Weapons ban (1994).
Exception: LEO's can buy NEW high cap mags and possess them - but they may not sell them to civilians (even those with a Class A high cap license)
AM I CORRECT in the above statements? If so - can anybody point me to the MA law(s) that detail this?
2) Glock mags: I know that there is a ton of information out there on what is pre-ban - and what is post ban. But a lot of what I have seen is contradictory. I just got off the phone with a person at TopGlock who claims that Post ban mags all have the caliber markings higher on the plastic than the pre-bans. He said he directly represents Glock and knows this to be true.
Does anybody know if the above is correct beyond a shadow of a doubt? I know I have read the stories about how even Glock cannot identify what is pre or post ban.
The story: I bought a Glock 21 a few weeks back - it is a third gen gun that I purchased on FTF deal from a LEO (used an FA10). I was looking for some more mags for the gun - and I wasn't going to bother with looking for pre-ban high cap mags since the round count isn't that much different. So I went to a gunbroker auction - and purchased some 10 round mags (Glock new).
I get the envelope in the mail a week or so later - and open up the envelope, and lo and behold they sent me 13 round mags. I just called them to get this straightened out and spent 15 minutes almost arguing with the guy telling him I know what the law is - and I cannot posses NEW mags with a capacity of over 10 rounds. He claims that he was told - at a gun show - by a MA State Trooper - that high cap mags are legal to sell in MA.
And this Co. is setting up a table at the Springfield show - and he is selling high cap mags there.
So can somebody point me to the info I need to prove to this guy what the law is? I may actually hit the show in Springfield this weekend and would like to have the info with me - so I can show the guy and get him a little bit better informed on what MA law really is - despite what this alleged trooper was telling him.
I know there are other threads on this site that deal with this subject - but I figured I would ask again since I can't seem to find all the info wrapped up in one place. I know this is a can of worms - and is once again another example of how convoluted and screwed up the MA laws are.
Questions:
1) The way I understand the MA law is that high capacity magazines (anything over 10 rounds) is illegal to own , even with a Class A license - UNLESS - those magazines were manufactured prior to the Assault Weapons ban (1994).
Exception: LEO's can buy NEW high cap mags and possess them - but they may not sell them to civilians (even those with a Class A high cap license)
AM I CORRECT in the above statements? If so - can anybody point me to the MA law(s) that detail this?
2) Glock mags: I know that there is a ton of information out there on what is pre-ban - and what is post ban. But a lot of what I have seen is contradictory. I just got off the phone with a person at TopGlock who claims that Post ban mags all have the caliber markings higher on the plastic than the pre-bans. He said he directly represents Glock and knows this to be true.
Does anybody know if the above is correct beyond a shadow of a doubt? I know I have read the stories about how even Glock cannot identify what is pre or post ban.
The story: I bought a Glock 21 a few weeks back - it is a third gen gun that I purchased on FTF deal from a LEO (used an FA10). I was looking for some more mags for the gun - and I wasn't going to bother with looking for pre-ban high cap mags since the round count isn't that much different. So I went to a gunbroker auction - and purchased some 10 round mags (Glock new).
I get the envelope in the mail a week or so later - and open up the envelope, and lo and behold they sent me 13 round mags. I just called them to get this straightened out and spent 15 minutes almost arguing with the guy telling him I know what the law is - and I cannot posses NEW mags with a capacity of over 10 rounds. He claims that he was told - at a gun show - by a MA State Trooper - that high cap mags are legal to sell in MA.
And this Co. is setting up a table at the Springfield show - and he is selling high cap mags there.
So can somebody point me to the info I need to prove to this guy what the law is? I may actually hit the show in Springfield this weekend and would like to have the info with me - so I can show the guy and get him a little bit better informed on what MA law really is - despite what this alleged trooper was telling him.
Most of what you're looking for is in here: (Glock Mag Discussion thread)
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944
As far as the law that governs it, it's basically the MA Assault Weapons Ban, which is an almost-mirror of the old fed one...
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
Look for "large capacity feeding device" etc.
IIRC if you call Glock up their official line was that they have no way of identifying pre vs post,
etc. Not sure if this has changed.
-Mike
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944
As far as the law that governs it, it's basically the MA Assault Weapons Ban, which is an almost-mirror of the old fed one...
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
Look for "large capacity feeding device" etc.
calsdad said:
IIRC if you call Glock up their official line was that they have no way of identifying pre vs post,
etc. Not sure if this has changed.
-Mike
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Yes. Unfortunately, the MA legal definition just points to the federal definition:
full text: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
From what I understand, there is no hard and fast way to identify pre-ban mags. Even Glock doesn't know which are pre-ban. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944
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I could tell you on Monday after I get some high cap. mags over the weekend from somewhere.
Look at Mass. Gen. Laws. Ch. 140, Sec. 131M.
See Sec. 121 for definition of "large capacity feeding device."
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My take on it is simple:
My mags don't explicitly state LEO only, therefore I use em. There aren't any dates, or any sufficient evidence that would indicate a magazines date of manufacture. Also, GLOCK themselves have been quoted stated "there is no real way to tell". Carry on! My license allows for the carrying of hi-capacity magazines. So long as there is no proof that the magazines I am carrying are illegal (post 94), it's safe to assume they are legal unless proven otherwise.
My mags don't explicitly state LEO only, therefore I use em. There aren't any dates, or any sufficient evidence that would indicate a magazines date of manufacture. Also, GLOCK themselves have been quoted stated "there is no real way to tell". Carry on! My license allows for the carrying of hi-capacity magazines. So long as there is no proof that the magazines I am carrying are illegal (post 94), it's safe to assume they are legal unless proven otherwise.
And you do not bear the burden of such proof!
You have to be somewhat careful with this. For example, a G21SF large capacity mag is a dead giveaway WRT being post-ban, as it has an ambi release notches in it. There are plenty of other "slam dunk" ones out there as well.
Under the federal law, your blanket assertion would hold up a lot better but MA did not adopt the part of federal law which defined the required "standard of evidence" on"large capacity" magazine issues....
-Mike
Hence, stating if they can't prove it. In your case, proof can be provided.
Can you please elaborate? Just not following...need more coffee. Thanks.
I would think a prosecutor still bears the burden of proof that it is post-ban.
And after you win your court case, pay multiple thousands of dollars to your attorney, then you back to the police department to find that the chief will not give you back your LTC (which he suspended) because he considers you to be unsuitable...
It seems that there is alot of contradicting information on this. I've bought mags from gun shops in Mass that were sold to me as pre-bans that look exactly like brand new mags and are FML. Now the guy could have sold me newer post-ban used mags but i'm going to assume these FFL's were honest (we kinda have to now don't we?).
The fact is that unless it looks like the picture below someone is going to have a damn hard time proving that it is post-ban.
The fact is that unless it looks like the picture below someone is going to have a damn hard time proving that it is post-ban.
Under the federal AWB, there was a part of the law which specifically spelled out the criteria for determination of provenance- eg, it said that if a magazine did not have the markings specified in the law, then any assertion that a magazine was preban was to be taken at face value- eg, "if these markings don't exist, and the guy says it's pre-ban, then it is."
I don't have chapter and verse in front of me at the moment, I think I referenced it a long time ago somewhere in that glock mag thread that I posted above, because at the time Len didn't believe me, and I had to dig through some search engines to find it.
I agree with that, but IMO it is more "convenient" under MA law than it was under Federal law- in the fed situation the prosecution was walled off into relying on a stricter standard of evidence; in MA that is not the
case. They can make up their own standard as they go along, if they can get the jury to buy it.
-Mike
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No problem. I will take the money from my left hand and move it to my right hand.
They would have to provide evidence to you showing, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the mags were post-ban high cap before trial and that is all they could be. My defense would be the dealer who sold it to me represented it was pre-ban and I have no means of knowing otherwise (it wasn't stamped law enforcement only).
I am also more than happy to sue the CLEO if necessary - costs me nothing and state court can be a hoot.
calsdad
NES Member
It is becoming clearer (as mud) why maybe some people are completely confused as to what the law is - or maybe we are confused as to what the law is - I don't know, I am confused.
So first I read section 140-121, which defines what each term means.
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
Large capacity feeding device is spelled out as meaning:
Ok so a "large capacity feeding device" (high cap mag) is defined as something that accepts more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
Then I go to section 123 and I read:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-123.htm
So I am still not finding anything that explicity bans owning any magazine that has over a 10 round capacity - only that I can only own such high cap mags - if I have a Class A license.
I go to section 131 - which defines what a Class A license is:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm
So far what I have read (if I include the definition in section 121 of what a high capacity feeding device) - seems to say that high capacity magazines ARE LEGAL if you have a Class A.
So what am I missing? Where is the specific legal mumbo jumbo that bans NEW mags over 10 round capacity? I am asking this to get a better understanding - and I now I understand why even the alleged State Trooper that my original contact referred to - probably believes that high cap mags are LEGAL.
So first I read section 140-121, which defines what each term means.
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
Large capacity feeding device is spelled out as meaning:
Ok so a "large capacity feeding device" (high cap mag) is defined as something that accepts more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
Then I go to section 123 and I read:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-123.htm
So I am still not finding anything that explicity bans owning any magazine that has over a 10 round capacity - only that I can only own such high cap mags - if I have a Class A license.
I go to section 131 - which defines what a Class A license is:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm
So far what I have read (if I include the definition in section 121 of what a high capacity feeding device) - seems to say that high capacity magazines ARE LEGAL if you have a Class A.
So what am I missing? Where is the specific legal mumbo jumbo that bans NEW mags over 10 round capacity? I am asking this to get a better understanding - and I now I understand why even the alleged State Trooper that my original contact referred to - probably believes that high cap mags are LEGAL.
And while you are doing that, you aren't doing any paying work.
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