Maryland AWB case Snope v Brown going to SCOTUS. (Formerly Bianchi v Brown & Bianchi v Frosh)

Who is the opponent if these are granted? Meaning.... Who argues on behalf of Brown when it gets to this level? Is it someone from Maryland's AGO (or someone they hire) or is it the US Solicitor General?

-JR
 
Didn’t they already GVR a magazine case back to fed in California shortly after Bruen? And the sense is the en bank panel there is waiting for SCOTUS to rule on this?
Thinking the same. Either the 6 on the court are stupid/ignorant in thinking the lower courts will rule any differently or they're just actively dodging rocking the boat.

It's pretty obvious the courts in these circuits have no intention of striking down any feature based gun laws and are playing chicken with Scotus and so far Scotus has continued to fold.

@MickeyD’s scenario is probably the most likely because it's the least impactful and it would kick the can further.

One thing Scotus is not going to do is grant cert to more than one 2A case.
 
Who is the opponent if these are granted? Meaning.... Who argues on behalf of Brown when it gets to this level? Is it someone from Maryland's AGO (or someone they hire) or is it the US Solicitor General?
While many people contributed amici briefs, the Maryland AG office formally argues in opposition.

Ryan Robert Dietrich
Counsel of Record
Office of the Attorney General of Maryland
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202
 
Didn’t they already GVR a magazine case back to fed in California shortly after Bruen? And the sense is the en bank panel there is waiting for SCOTUS to rule on this?
Duncan v. Bonta was GVR’d, and to the surprise of no one, District Court Judge Benitez struck it down a second time. The 9th circuit decided to skip a 3 judge panel and hear the appeal en banc. It was argued in March. While a lengthy delay is not unusual for the 9th, it’s as good a guess as any for the delay this time.
 
Well, we can be sure that Jackson, Sotomayor and Kagan are all “no’s”.
If they believe they can suck Gorsuch or Barret over to their side, you better believe they will do it.
Why only one? Because Roberts would love to give the other side a "win" in order to look like the court is sitting in the center.

We have three almost certain votes to strike down AWBs - Thomas, Alito and Kavanaugh.
ACB is probably a 70% yes to strike down AWBs
Gorsuch is likely a vote to strike down AWBs but we really don't have strong history on his firearms positions.

What we want is Snope with a 5:4 (Thomas, Alito, Barrett, and Gorsuch) and Alito writing. I think getting Roberts onboard would water down any opinion to the point that states would interpret into room for some level of ban or at least taxation (Think state level NFA tax stamps).

One issue I see is the government arguing that there is little difference between an AR-15 and M-16 when reviewed under the Heller/Bruen doctrine - which I agree with. However, the court has already signaled that they feel automatics are likely not protected arms.
 
If they believe they can suck Gorsuch or Barret over to their side, you better believe they will do it.
Why only one? Because Roberts would love to give the other side a "win" in order to look like the court is sitting in the center.

We have three almost certain votes to strike down AWBs - Thomas, Alito and Kavanaugh.
ACB is probably a 70% yes to strike down AWBs
Gorsuch is likely a vote to strike down AWBs but we really don't have strong history on his firearms positions.

What we want is Snope with a 5:4 (Thomas, Alito, Barrett, and Gorsuch) and Alito writing. I think getting Roberts onboard would water down any opinion to the point that states would interpret into room for some level of ban or at least taxation (Think state level NFA tax stamps).

One issue I see is the government arguing that there is little difference between an AR-15 and M-16 when reviewed under the Heller/Bruen doctrine - which I agree with. However, the court has already signaled that they feel automatics are likely not protected arms.
Thx. I worry, though, that a 5-4 decision is easier to overturn in the future. I think you meant to include Kav in the 5 above.
 
Thx. I worry, though, that a 5-4 decision is easier to overturn in the future. I think you meant to include Kav in the 5 above.
No, we want a strong opinion and that isn't going to happen if Roberts is part of it.
Any SCOTUS opinion is extremely hard to overturn - We saw Roe fall because it was wrongly decided and that was openly admitted by even the most liberal members of the court.
With stare decisis we see a monumental hurdle to overcome any decision unless that decision was wantonly incorrect - any overturning of AWBs would be very hard to argue against given the current state of case law (Heller, Bruen, Caetano) covering what arms are covered.

Yeah - forgot to put Kavanaugh in the list (he is just behind Thomas and Alito on baseline 2a)
 
Jump to the 1:30 minute mark for the start of his opining on today's four cases.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VPyH0R9KY8

US Supreme Court addresses four Second Amendment cases today in conference and Stephen Halbrook makes the case of what they should do. Mark Smith Four Boxes Diner

The Stephen Halbrook article Mark Smith references in the above video.
Four Second Amendment petitions were distributed for the Court's conference on Friday January 10. I just posted on the merits of these cases. A dramatic development has just occurred showing the dire need for the Court to clarify its jurisprudence in this area. The best case to do so is Snope v. Brown, which concerns whether Maryland may ban semiautomatic rifles that are in common use for lawful purposes.

Here's the urgency. Yet another state, Colorado, is about to ban virtually all semiautomatic rifles, large numbers of semiautomatic pistols, and even a number of semiautomatic shotguns. The previous state bans encompass America's most widely-held rifles such as the AR-15, but they don't apply to semiautomatic rifles that do not have pistol grips or other cosmetic features. The Colorado bill will ban ALL semiautomatic rifles that use a detachable magazine, which means almost all semiautomatic rifles. No other state goes that far.

The bill, SB 3, defines a "specified semiautomatic firearm" to include a "semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine." That will include a Browning BAR Semi-Auto rifle, a traditional hunting rifle that comes with a magazine holding only three rounds. The only exemption is for rifles that use .22 rimfire rounds, which cannot be used for large game.

SB 3 will also ban a "gas-operated semiautomatic handgun with a detachable magazine," which would include countless pistols such as the S&W M&P 5.7. It doesn't matter that the Supreme Court in Heller held that handguns as a class are protected by the Second Amendment.

The bill will also ban a "semiautomatic shotgun with a detachable magazine," such as a Remington 870 DM which comes with a six-round magazine. While most semiauto shotguns use a tubular magazine, detachable magazines are safer as they allow unloading without chambering each round.

SB 3 will make it a crime to transfer, sell, or purchase a specified semiautomatic firearm. A first offense will render one liable for a $250,000 fine. In addition to imprisonment, conviction for a second offense will leave the person ineligible to possess any firearm.

According to the Colorado Sun, SB 3 has 18 Senate cosponsors, and only 18 votes are needed for passage. The Sun notes that it will "almost certainly be approved by the House, where it has 24 original cosponsors." In support of the bill, Everytown mischaracterizes the subject firearms as "high-powered, military style firearms."

Some states and some circuit courts are pushing the envelope against the Supreme Court's Second Amendment rulings. It's time for the Court, as Chief Justice Marshall famously put it, "to say what the law is."
The Supreme Court has distributed two important cases for its conference of January 10. One is Snope v. Brown, which concerns whether Maryland may ban semiautomatic rifles that are in common use for lawful purposes. The other is Ocean State Tactical v. Rhode Island, which asks whether a retrospective, confiscatory ban on the possession of ammunition feeding devices that are in common use violates the Second Amendment.

The Court should grant the petitions for writs of certiorari. The cases present a critically important question going to the heart of the Second Amendment – may the government prohibit mere possession of AR-15s and similar semiautomatic rifles and of standard magazines that come with most semiautomatic rifles and pistols?

As I explained in my recent post "Firepower and the Fourth Circuit," Maryland's prohibition on AR-15s and the like rifles was upheld en banc on the merits under reasoning in direct conflict with the Supreme Court's precedents. Likewise, the First Circuit's affirmance of the denial of a preliminary injunction against the Rhode Island ban follows the same trend by certain circuit courts flaunting even the most recent of the Court's rulings.

For most of the Nation's history, long guns – rifles and shotguns – were seen as good, while handguns were depicted by some as bad. The muskets fired at Lexington and Concord became a symbol of American freedom. Restrictions on the carrying of concealed pistols arose in the nineteenth century. New York's Sullivan Law of 1911 required a permit just to keep a handgun in the home. But as the New York court explained in People v. Raso (1958), "a rifle may be possessed in the home or carried openly upon the person on the street without violating any law," since in restricting concealed weapons, the legislature "carefully avoided including rifles because of the Federal constitutional provision and [NewYork's] Civil Rights law provision." I personally heard Justice Scalia tell how, when he was on the high school rifle team, he carried his rifle on the New York subway.

The initial bill that became the National Firearms Act of 1934 listed pistols and revolvers first among the firearms that would be subject to registration. Attorney General Homer Cummings depicted them as the ultimate gangster weapons, but they were removed from the Act as passed.

Repeating rifles with magazines holding numerous cartridges had been around since the mid-nineteenth century in the form of lever-actions. Semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines were on the market by the turn of the century. Virtually no restrictions on either type were enacted.

Fast forward to District of Columbia v. Heller, in which the District's brief argued that its handgun ban "do[es] not disarm the District's citizens, who may still possess operational rifles and shotguns." The law "continues to allow private home possession of shotguns and rifles, which some gun rights' proponents contend are actually the weapons of choice for home defense." Its amicus Violence Policy Center contended that "a wealth of evidence" shows that "in almost all situations 'shotguns and rifles are much more effective in stopping a [criminal].'"

Invalidating the handgun ban in Heller, the Supreme Court set forth principles that apply to both handguns and long guns. First, "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding." Second, the Second Amendment protects arms that are "'in common use at the time' for lawful purposes like self-defense" and are "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes." Third, handguns as a class are protected by the Amendment and may not be banned; the Court did not need to mention that most handguns are semiautomatic. Fourth, the Court suggested that "M-16 rifles and the like," i.e., fully automatic machineguns, and "sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large" may be banned.

As its interpretative tools, Heller was based on text, which was informed by the original public understanding, and history, particularly the allowance from the Founding that the "carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons" could be restricted, but that arms could not be banned. The Court rejected Justice Breyer's argument that the right could be eliminated based on judicial "interest balancing."

In response to the Heller decision, the District legalized handguns but banned numerous rifles it characterized as "assault weapons" together with "large capacity" magazines. Given the above points from the Heller decision, we thought that a challenge to that ban would be a no-brainer, and brought the case that came to be known as Heller II.

In a 2-1 decision, the D.C. Circuit fully conceded that the banned rifles and magazines were commonly possessed in America, but upheld the ban under intermediate scrutiny, the very method of Justice Breyer that the Supreme Court rejected. In "Reality Check," Georgetown Journal of Law & Public Policy, I explained how the factual record in the case refuted the unsworn claims by antigun lobbyists in the legislative record relied on by the court. But the Heller II decision opened the Pandora's Box of intermediate scrutiny on which other circuits upheld semiautomatic rifle and magazine bans.

The silver lining in the cloud was then-Judge Brett Kavanaugh's dissenting opinion, which is a blueprint for how the Supreme Court should analyze similar rifle bans. The opinion brilliantly exposits Heller's analytic method of text and history as well as traces the over-a-century history in which semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines have been accepted by and are in common use by the American public. Judge Kavanaugh anticipated what the Supreme Court empathically later held so clearly in Bruen – that the correct method begins and ends with text and history, and as Justice Thomas put it, intermediate scrutiny is "one step too many."

Now denied use of the term "intermediate scrutiny," the Fourth Circuit in Snope and the First Circuit in Ocean State Tactical continue to apply their own subjective judicial balancing tests in which the Second Amendment always loses. The Snope court upheld Maryland's ban because supposedly the 9 mm cartridge, not the .223 caliber cartridge, is best for self-defense, oblivious to the fact that the ban is based on model and generic features, having nothing to do with caliber. Yet even though the majority use .223 rounds, there are AR-15 type rifles designed to fire 9 mm rounds, and they too are banned based on their features.

Similarly, the Ocean State Tactical court decided that no evidence exists that magazines holding over ten rounds "are used in self-defense," and thus that banning them "imposes no meaningful burden" on the right to self-defense. It wrote off what the people actually choose with the half-joke: "True, one could imagine Hollywood-inspired scenarios in which a homeowner would need to fend off a platoon of well-armed assailants without having to swap out magazines."

The Supreme Court should grant cert in these cases. The courts of appeal that have upheld such bans openly flaunt the Court's jurisprudence. It began after Heller, and it has now repeated itself after Bruen. While the states with bans are outliers, their large populations represent a significant number of Americans whose rights are being trampled.

There is no circuit split because most states respect the Second Amendment and would not enact such bans. The circuits that have upheld the bans appear to reflect the political judgments of at least some of the states under them.

The Snope litigants are represented by David Thompson (see cert petition) and the Ocean State litigants are represented by Paul Clement (see cert petition). I've covered the topic at length in America's Rifle: The Case for the AR-15.

There are also two other worthy cases that are distributed for the Court's conference on January 10. One is Gray v. Jennings, which seeks review of the Third Circuit's affirmance of the denial of a preliminary injunction against Delaware's ban on semiautomatic rifles. The issue posed is "Whether the infringement of Second Amendment rights constitutes per se irreparable injury." The other is Maryland Shall Issue v. Moore, which seeks review of Maryland's handgun license qualification requirement, which requires a redundant background check and duplicative waiting periods.
 
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We won't hear anything for a fee days.
We want a relist - probably won't get Cert right now since the clerks have to shake the case down for issues first.
However if we get Cert from this conference then that would portend a big interest in the court (since they would have already has their clerks review the case before the conference)
 
They need to have more conferences about the last conference. Then they will confer some more. The wheels on the bus go round and round…c’mon, sing it with me.
 
They need to have more conferences about the last conference. Then they will confer some more. The wheels on the bus go round and round…c’mon, sing it with me.
What sucks is we don't want scotus to move fast - they are supposed to be a slow moving, highly deliberate juggernaut.

If they take Snope, we will have an answer by the end of June.
If they don't, well, that sucks for us.
 
What sucks is we don't want scotus to move fast - they are supposed to be a slow moving, highly deliberate juggernaut.

If they take Snope, we will have an answer by the end of June.
If they don't, well, that sucks for us.
They should be a fast-moving, highly deliberate and efficient adjudicator. There are other courts in the country (business courts) that are able to do this to some degree. Problem is that all judiciaries operate in a political amphitheater and generally are incapable of acting truly impartial and without any political considerations whatsoever. Nature of humanity.
 
They should be a fast-moving, highly deliberate and efficient adjudicator. There are other courts in the country (business courts) that are able to do this to some degree. Problem is that all judiciaries operate in a political amphitheater and generally are incapable of acting truly impartial and without any political considerations whatsoever. Nature of humanity.
Congress is the fast mover in order to react to emerging issues - it is also has the closest tie to the people with 2 year election cycles.
The Supreme Court is designed as a high inertia, slow to react branch ao that it is not as subject to the fickle whims of society.

Congress should make fast but small adjustments
The courts make large but infrequent corrections.

The biggest issue is that Congress has set itself up to protect incumbents to the point of essentially lifetime appointments which skews the power heavily. Roberts is fighting by the rules while Congress shaking him at every opportunity.
 
More Mark Smith opining. Seems to have some concerns. Seems to think we'll get an outcome Monday morning. Could be bad, the court denies cert, or he's optimistic the court will be relisting the four 2A cases for the next conference on Jan 17.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHEok0BIPxw

The Supreme Court granted cert in 3 cases on Friday night but none of them were in 2nd Amendment cases. Mark Smith Four Boxes Diner discusses.
 
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More Mark Smith opining.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHEok0BIPxw

The Supreme Court granted cert in 3 cases on Friday night but none of them were in 2nd Amendment cases. Mark Smith Four Boxes Diner discusses.


It was a video to make a video

They were never going to grant cert the same day they had the conferences. We need to watch for them relisting which may happen earliest Monday or later on who really knows besides the judges sitting in that conference room.
 
They were never going to grant cert the same day they had the conferences.
And yet they apparently did exactly that yesterday by granting cert to three other cases after yesterday's conference.
FRIDAY, JANUARY 10, 2025
CERTIORARI GRANTED

24-316 BECERRA, SEC. OF H&HS, ET AL. V. BRAIDWOOD MGMT., INC., ET AL.
The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted.

24-413 DEPT. OF ED., ET AL. V. CAREER COLLEGES AND SCH. OF TX
The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted limited to Question 1 presented by the petition.

24-416 CIR V. ZUCH, JENNIFER
The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted.
PS: SCOTUS will release an order list at 9:30 a.m on Monday the 13th.
 
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