Mass Legal Combat Shotguns

[Scallops4Life]

I’m looking to pick up a nice combat shotgun but Mass laws are making this much tougher than I thought. I was hoping to get a Beretta 1301 Tactical Mod. 2 or Benelli M4 Tactical LE but the pistol grip and 7-8 round capacities look to disqualify them both (if I’m understanding the laws correctly). Even though it is total overkill, I was thinking of a Spas-12 since it’s pre-ban (1982). Do pre-ban rules apply to shotguns in Mass?

Thanks

Get the M4 100%

 

[RKG]

Agreed. That's why the Norincos are useful. Great design, great configuration, reliable function. I feel lucky I found mine. They're very faithful repros.

My only other shotty is a real-deal Winchester model 1897 made about eighty years ago. That thing's still rock-solid, but it's the full-length barrel. The "feel" of the Norinco is just as slick as the feel of the Winchester. Quality is great; everyone shits on Chinese manufacture, but nobody shits on Chinese AKs. They know how to make good guns, and their 1897 clones are first-rate.

And? They slam-fire, like they're supposed to.

To be sure, an original 87 Winchester is an intriguing shotgun. And I am prepared to accept Picton's endorsement of the Norinco.

However, either old or new, the 87 design has one design feature that mandates spending a good deal of time getting familiar with it: the potential for nailing your shooting hand thumb when racking the bolt back. Not good to be drawing one's own blood in the middle of a gun fight, and of all the fingers you don't want to lose, the strong hand thumb is very important.

Long time ago I settled on a stainless Winchester 1200 police turn-in. Very slick.

 

[dcmdon]

Pick up an old Rem 1100. Nobody talks about pre-ban shotguns, but they are real.

Start with a pre-ban 1100 and you can build it up with a big mag tube and even an evil pistol grip.

 

[ADRPatriot79]

I was directed to this thread by another guy in this forum because there is some confusion about what the legal capacity for semi-automatic shotguns is in MA.

Most people think you can have a 7 round semi-automatic shotgun as long as it doesn't have a pistol grip, but they are going by the Assault Weapon definition only. Here is an example from this thread.

you can also buy a beretta 1301 with pistol grip and fixed stock.

If it has the pistol grip and 7 round tube that would be an illegal assault weapon in MA.

I used to think the same thing until I inquired of a very well know FFL in Littleton (one of the legit ones that does Glocks and ARs) and he told me that, "It has NEVER been legal to have a semi auto shotgun in MA with over 5 round capacity." He also said if you have a semi-auto shotgun with more than 5 rounds it's a felony and if it also has a pistol grip it's 2 felonies.

The reason why has nothing to do with the AW law, it is the "Large capacity weapon" law that makes it illegal.

Here is the current wording after mid-2024

'Large capacity weapon'', any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon.

Here is the law prior to mid-2024. I underlined the words relevant to semi-auto shotguns. The words in bold show why a pump shotgun CAN have more than 5 rounds.

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon. The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon.

 

[not new guy]

Pick up an old Rem 1100. Nobody talks about pre-ban shotguns, but they are real.

Start with a pre-ban 1100 and you can build it up with a big mag tube and even an evil pistol grip.

Is this correct? I thought the large cap tube itself is illegal regardless of the semiauto gun it’s on.

 

[dcmdon]

I was directed to this thread by another guy in this forum because there is some confusion about what the legal capacity for semi-automatic shotguns is in MA.

Most people think you can have a 7 round semi-automatic shotgun as long as it doesn't have a pistol grip, but they are going by the Assault Weapon definition only. Here is an example from this thread.



I used to think the same thing until I inquired of a very well know FFL in Littleton (one of the legit ones that does Glocks and ARs) and he told me that, "It has NEVER been legal to have a semi auto shotgun in MA with over 5 round capacity." He also said if you have a semi-auto shotgun with more than 5 rounds it's a felony and if it also has a pistol grip it's 2 felonies.

The reason why has nothing to do with the AW law, it is the "Large capacity weapon" law that makes it illegal.

Here is the current wording after mid-2024

'Large capacity weapon'', any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon.

Here is the law prior to mid-2024. I underlined the words relevant to semi-auto shotguns. The words in bold show why a pump shotgun CAN have more than 5 rounds.

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon. The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon.

You make a really excellent point. But like many you forget about pre-ban shotguns.

It wont' make your friends salivate when you take it out of the case like a modern gun will, but a 35 year old Rem 1100 can be set up to be an absolutely fantastic "combat" shotgun, like the OP asked. If it was made prior to 98, which is when I believe mag cap limits were introduced, then it's grandfathered.

The up side is that older 1100s are priced just like old shotguns, not like anything interesting. You could probably find one to. build off of for $300 if you searched gun broker.

But now we get into the new law. It would be illegal if it held more than 5 rounds. Another part of the law (going by memory , please correct me if I'm wrong, dont' have time to look it up) requires the gun was legally owned in MA prior to July 2024. Hmm. As I'm writing this, I'm realizing that unless you already owned a preban 1100, the new law may stop you.

I'm not sure. I guess my main point is that pre-94 semi auto shotguns may offer an angle towards larger capacity and legality.

 

[ADRPatriot79]

You make a really excellent point. But like many you forget about pre-ban shotguns.

Absolutely...I'm not talking about pre-ban anything. I'm just talking about many folks, like me, who used to believe that a 7 round shotgun was okay as long as it didn't have a pistol grip. That hasn't been the case even before last year's debacle of a gun law. So folks who have a 7 rounder (not pre-ban) and think they're good because they owned it before July 2024 are in for a surprise. Owning a non-preban with more than 5 rounds was a felony before last year and still is.

And I think you're right about the new law...I think you would have to have owned it before July 2024. However, I don't know if that part of the law (or most of it for that matter) will hold up in court once the challenges actually get there.

 

[kalash]

Me, stuffing 14 mini shells into a pump shotgun...

 

[Scallops4Life]

Honestly at this point who cares. I'm not even reapplying for my license. I have what I want and need. Tired of all the made up rules/laws, executive orders.

 

[Warm_Garand]

Absolutely...I'm not talking about pre-ban anything. I'm just talking about many folks, like me, who used to believe that a 7 round shotgun was okay as long as it didn't have a pistol grip. That hasn't been the case even before last year's debacle of a gun law. So folks who have a 7 rounder (not pre-ban) and think they're good because they owned it before July 2024 are in for a surprise. Owning a non-preban with more than 5 rounds was a felony before last year and still is.

And I think you're right about the new law...I think you would have to have owned it before July 2024. However, I don't know if that part of the law (or most of it for that matter) will hold up in court once the challenges actually get there.

You were correct before, and now you are wrong.

The definitions in the original MA law were cut-and-paste directly from the Federal 1994 AWB, and codified into MA law when the Federal ban expired in 2004--correct?

The 1994 "Assault Weapons Ban" prohibited:

Semi-automatic shotguns with two (2) or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
A fixed magazine capacity over 5 rounds OR
A detachable magazine

OK. So CLEARLY 5+ rounds was fine for a semiauto shotgun as long as you didn't have a pistol grip. MA called them "high capacity shotguns"--and you could go to your local gun store and buy one (as well as a "high capacity rifle" like an AR15) with even a lowly "Class B License to Carry".

The MA ban precisely mirrored the language (and presumably the legal intent) of the Federal AWB until its expiration--ergo a semiauto shotgun was perfectly legal if it had only 1 of the evil features (read: fixed capacity of +5).

Can anyone point out to me exactly when they CHANGED the language to (retroactively) include ALL semiautomatic shotguns with a fixed capacity over 5 rounds?

What (sometimes) creates confusion is that there was also a Federal "Importation Ban" on firearms which don't meet a "sporting purposes" criteria. That is a whole seperate thing.

The ban on high-capacity IMPORTED shotguns had to do with the IMPORTATION ban on "non-sporting" firearms--and it affected Italian shotguns like Benelli and Italian-made Beretta's IF they were high-capacity or had "military features".

Beretta CAN legally sell domestically-produced high-capacity shotguns like the A300/400 shotguns--they just have to be made in the USA.

 

[Coyote33]

All this talk is only about Mass, right?

 

[MaroonedinMA]

Been feeling the need for a semi auto and leaning towards the 1301 but what I'm curious about is the technicalities of converting a 7 round to a 5 round.

It's silly, but the 5 round models with the short tubes look pretty silly IMO. If it's possible to convert, as Crackpot detailed, that would seem the best route. Anyone have any (additional) experience converting 7 to 5 but keeping the OAL in a manner that seem legal? His method seems logical, just interested in other opinions.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Been feeling the need for a semi auto and leaning towards the 1301 but what I'm curious about is the technicalities of converting a 7 round to a 5 round.

It's silly, but the 5 round models with the short tubes look pretty silly IMO. If it's possible to convert, as Crackpot detailed, that would seem the best route. Anyone have any (additional) experience converting 7 to 5 but keeping the OAL in a manner that seem legal? His method seems logical, just interested in other opinions.

Look at the Mossberg 940 Pro. It looks the way a self defense/combat style shotgun should.

 

[Warm_Garand]

All this talk is only about Mass, right?

Yes. I was responding to the quote:

...I inquired of a very well know FFL in Littleton (one of the legit ones that does Glocks and ARs) and he told me that, "It has NEVER been legal to have a semi auto shotgun in MA with over 5 round capacity." He also said if you have a semi-auto shotgun with more than 5 rounds it's a felony and if it also has a pistol grip it's 2 felonies.



We have enough gaslighting going on from the Orwellian Overlords in the State House without letting blatant disinformation/FUD stand uncorrected.

 

[MAJoe]

All this talk is only about Mass, right?

Except for the sporting import stuff, that’s federal.

 

[ADRPatriot79]

You were correct before, and now you are wrong.

The definitions in the original MA law were cut-and-paste directly from the Federal 1994 AWB, and codified into MA law when the Federal ban expired in 2004--correct?

The 1994 "Assault Weapons Ban" prohibited:

Semi-automatic shotguns with two (2) or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
A fixed magazine capacity over 5 rounds OR
A detachable magazine

OK. So CLEARLY 5+ rounds was fine for a semiauto shotgun as long as you didn't have a pistol grip. MA called them "high capacity shotguns"--and you could go to your local gun store and buy one (as well as a "high capacity rifle" like an AR15) with even a lowly "Class B License to Carry".

The MA ban precisely mirrored the language (and presumably the legal intent) of the Federal AWB until its expiration--ergo a semiauto shotgun was perfectly legal if it had only 1 of the evil features (read: fixed capacity of +5).

Can anyone point out to me exactly when they CHANGED the language to (retroactively) include ALL semiautomatic shotguns with a fixed capacity over 5 rounds?

What (sometimes) creates confusion is that there was also a Federal "Importation Ban" on firearms which don't meet a "sporting purposes" criteria. That is a whole seperate thing.

The ban on high-capacity IMPORTED shotguns had to do with the IMPORTATION ban on "non-sporting" firearms--and it affected Italian shotguns like Benelli and Italian-made Beretta's IF they were high-capacity or had "military features".

Beretta CAN legally sell domestically-produced high-capacity shotguns like the A300/400 shotguns--they just have to be made in the USA.

You may be right and I may be wrong. But I'm still not sure. Here's why...and I believe this language was in the law before last year. I underlined and bolded the relevant text. If you read just that text, you'll see what I mean.

Section 121 has all the definitions. Here's the wording for "Large Capacity Feeding Device"

''Large capacity feeding device'', (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term ''large capacity feeding device'' shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

So by this definition, the fixed magazine on a shotgun is a "large capacity feeding device" if it accepts more than 5 shells. Now here's Section 131M.

Section 131M. No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.

Trust me. I wish the law was clear enough that we didn't have to navigate a thousand different sections to answer one simple question. Furthermore, I wish the law was not unconstitutional. Then again, no one is forcing us to live in MA.

I also realize that people have been selling, transferring, and possessing them for years in MA.

 

[Warm_Garand]

SNIP:

I also realize that people have been selling, transferring, and possessing them for years in MA.

Correct. Because it had never occurred to them that they couldn't--and there is a reason for that. Every shotgun owner at the time understood implicitly that the intent underpinning the law had to 100% do with shotguns with detachable magazines and "military features" like pistol grips and bayonet lugs.

In Orwell's novel 1984 Big Brother announces that Oceania is at war with Eastasia and they have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

If the Commonwealth REALLY wants to gaslight people they can (and no doubt someday WILL) assert with a perfectly straight face that 1911's are in fact "high-capacity" pistols--and they have ALWAYS been high-capacity pistols--because (gasp!) they COULD "readily" accept a drum mag--and aren't those 1911's monstrous and shouldn't they be banned.

Which brings us all back around to the fundamental reality at work in this state--all Massachusetts gun owners are Felons In Waiting. The law means whatever they want it to mean, and we are all just individually waiting for the dreaded shoe to drop.

 

[ADRPatriot79]

If the Commonwealth REALLY wants to gaslight people they can (and no doubt someday WILL) assert with a perfectly straight face that 1911's are in fact "high-capacity" pistols--and they have ALWAYS been high-capacity pistols--because (gasp!) they COULD "readily" accept a drum mag--and aren't those 1911's monstrous and shouldn't they be banned.

Owning a high capacity firearm is not illegal according to the "letter of the law." It's the transferring/selling of the "high capacity feeding device." Because, as you said, any firearm that can readily accept a 10+ round mag would be considered high capacity in this ridiculous state, making them illegal would essentially ban all magazine fed guns. But the law as written considers the fixed mag on a shotgun a "high capacity feeding device" and therein lies the problem.

Which brings us all back around to the fundamental reality at work in this state--all Massachusetts gun owners are Felons In Waiting. The law means whatever they want it to mean, and we are all just individually waiting for the dreaded shoe to drop.

For sure...so why are all the 2A cases being won elsewhere and nobody has successfully taken down MA's Orwellian laws? What are GOAL, GOA, NRA, etc. doing with all the money they get from gun owners? I know there are lawsuits currently happening, but why hasn't there already been a lawsuit originating in this state that makes it to the SCOTUS?