Mass legal method for displaying guns in my house

[dixidawg]

It was......


































































...for the children.....

 

[jdubois]

If I am not mistaken it is the latter...most particularly children. I believe the intent of the law was to prevent young children from gaining access/firing.

I would concur. Since the gun need not be in a locked container if it has a trigger lock on it, there's no way the intent of the law could be to prevent theft. The law also uses the word "inoperable" not "unobtainable" for the condition you are required to create. The law is trying to keep unauthorized users (aka children) from being able to shoot the gun.

 

[terraformer]

I would concur. Since the gun need not be in a locked container if it has a trigger lock on it, there's no way the intent of the law could be to prevent theft. The law also uses the word "inoperable" not "unobtainable" for the condition you are required to create. The law is trying to keep unauthorized users (aka children) from being able to shoot the gun.

But someone should remind folks of the recent case law where just because it is legal, you may be liable civilly. You need to make reasonable effort to make sure others don't get access to them and this may mean exceeding the minimum needed to comply with the law.

 

[MasterShinken]

hmm, I thank this thread, I was trying to figure out how I could aford .25" thick steel plates for the gun safe i'm making, now I feel I can go a bit thinner and back it up with wood... I figure if it'd take more than 30 seconds with a cutting torch to get thru it, it's secure enough

---
On another thought, is it against the law to hook the outer edge of a gun safe up to a cattle fence electrifier, just in case someone actualy does rip thru the outside of the thing...

 

[Titan]

hmm, I thank this thread, I was trying to figure out how I could aford .25" thick steel plates for the gun safe i'm making, now I feel I can go a bit thinner and back it up with wood... I figure if it'd take more than 30 seconds with a cutting torch to get thru it, it's secure enough

---
On another thought, is it against the law to hook the outer edge of a gun safe up to a cattle fence electrifier, just in case someone actualy does rip thru the outside of the thing...

It doesn't sound like fire resistance is one of your objectives, but using fire retardant sheet rock rather than wood for a backing material would provide better fire protection than a wood backing.

 

[ryan81986]

hmm, I thank this thread, I was trying to figure out how I could aford .25" thick steel plates for the gun safe i'm making, now I feel I can go a bit thinner and back it up with wood... I figure if it'd take more than 30 seconds with a cutting torch to get thru it, it's secure enough

---
On another thought, is it against the law to hook the outer edge of a gun safe up to a cattle fence electrifier, just in case someone actualy does rip thru the outside of the thing...

You could but you have to have 2 things energized for it to work. Essentially a positive and a ground. Otherwise you can touch one or the other and nothing will happen.

 

[MasterShinken]

It doesn't sound like fire resistance is one of your objectives, but using fire retardant sheet rock rather than wood for a backing material would provide better fire protection than a wood backing.

Hmm, good thought. the design i'm working on would have a metal safe (completely enclosed in metal) with a wooden cabinet outside, that would mask the fact that it was a safe. I am planning on making it decently air tight also. do you think the steel inner wall would be enough to protect it if the outside wood caught on fire?

You could but you have to have 2 things energized for it to work. Essentially a positive and a ground. Otherwise you can touch one or the other and nothing will happen.

I could make the floor grounded, install a piece of metal under the carpet and attach it to neg

 

[jdubois]

I could make the floor grounded, install a piece of metal under the carpet and attach it to neg

In case you're serious, people have been successfully sued for booby traps. As I recall there was a case of a farmer setting up a shotgun with a tripwire in an empty house on his property. When somebody broke in, set it off, and got shot, they sued and won damages because the man had set the trap with the specific intent to do bodily harm.

 

[Titan]

Hmm, good thought. the design i'm working on would have a metal safe (completely enclosed in metal) with a wooden cabinet outside, that would mask the fact that it was a safe. I am planning on making it decently air tight also. do you think the steel inner wall would be enough to protect it if the outside wood caught on fire?

Generally speaking, a single wall of steel provides no fire protection other than to hold the flames at bay for a while. The steel will quickly heat up and pass that heat onto the interior. Many/most fire resistant gun safes contain fire retardant sheet rock BETWEEN the exterior steel and the internal contents of the safe, providing both heat insulation and protection from combustability. Some vendors substitute concrete or various other fire-retardent materials for the sheet rock, but the purpose is the same - to protect the contents from the heat build up and flammability risk.

In the design you describe, it would certainly secure your guns, but not provide fire protection. The wood case would burn and hold flame and heat close to the steel lining, with no OTHER protective layer between the steel and the contents. If you are concerned about fire as well as concealability, you may want to develop a different plan. (ex. purchase a fire retardant safe and conceal it in a closet, etc.)

You may want to consider another plan if fire is also a concern - (ex. purchase a safe and hide it in a closet).

 

[MACGYVR]

I watched the simpsons the other night and thought it had a valuable lesson regarding safes:

Homer sets the house on fire. Afterwards Marge gets concerned that her most valued possesion (the family photo album) would be lost in a fire. They go out and buy a firesafe.

Each family member gets to put one thing to protect.

Marge puts the photo album
Homer puts a bottle of the cologne he wore on his honeymoon
Lisa put a malibu stacy toy car
Bart put a talking and walking krusty doll

They slam the door shut and declare now we never have to worry about losing our precious items in a fire.

Just then bart notices smoke coming out of the safe.

They open it and all their posessions were reduced to ashes.

When they shut the door, the crusty doll turned on, walked into the toy car turning on its headlights which heated the cologne which caught fire setting the krusty doll on fire and everything else in the safe.

Moral:
Remember that just because its a firesafe, its not fireproof or idiot proof.

Keep the contents to items that can't be an ignition source or are corrosive.
Stick with the basics: paper, plastic, wood and metal
Even those goldenrods for humidity control are worrysome since they are electric. And always remove batteries from devices when storing them too.

 

[MasterShinken]

In the design you describe, it would certainly secure your guns, but not provide fire protection. The wood case would burn and hold flame and heat close to the steel lining, with no OTHER protective layer between the steel and the contents. If you are concerned about fire as well as concealability, you may want to develop a different plan. (ex. purchase a fire retardant safe and conceal it in a closet, etc.)

You may want to consider another plan if fire is also a concern - (ex. purchase a safe and hide it in a closet).

Glad I posted the question, I had never thought of this. Do you think if I put a 5/8" piece of drywall in between the outer piece of steel, and a thinner piece of sheet steel inside would work, or better use drywall on the outside, and try to dress it up to look more like wood (laminate would probably work). It would be nice to make it mildly fire retardant. but I doubt I could get it fireproof within my design specifications. all in all though it's not my biggest concern, as most the safes I was looking at and would have bought had I not decided it was time for another fun DIY project were not fireproof by any means. the inside of the safe will not have any wood in it's construction, and each gun will be enclosed in a custom cutout foamish insert of material I have not yet decided, perhaps insulating/fireproof/meltproof specs will be more heavily weighted in that material .

Thanks for the info!

 

[Titan]

Glad I posted the question, I had never thought of this. Do you think if I put a 5/8" piece of drywall in between the outer piece of steel, and a thinner piece of sheet steel inside would work, or better use drywall on the outside, and try to dress it up to look more like wood (laminate would probably work). It would be nice to make it mildly fire retardant. but I doubt I could get it fireproof within my design specifications. all in all though it's not my biggest concern, as most the safes I was looking at and would have bought had I not decided it was time for another fun DIY project were not fireproof by any means. the inside of the safe will not have any wood in it's construction, and each gun will be enclosed in a custom cutout foamish insert of material I have not yet decided, perhaps insulating/fireproof/meltproof specs will be more heavily weighted in that material .

Thanks for the info!

MS,
You are right that you'll never get it fireproof. 'Fire retardant' or 'fire resistant' would be much more likely if you did as you suggested...
1) either 'double insulate' your project by sandwiching sheetrock between layers of steel, OR

2) encasing the project in sheetrock, with or without an exterior laminate.

I knew a guy who did something like what you have in mind, although he began with a retail gun safe. Once the safe was positioned, he surrounded it with sheet rock (essentially built-it in to the adjacent wall) and then built a hinged false front consisting of a frame and drawer fronts to cover the safe door. His objective was to ADD fire protection and to conceal the safe from casual visitors to his home (guests, contractors, service people, etc.) The downside to 'building it in' into a wall is that I believe it makes the project part of the home and not removeable when you move.

It worked great for him and I would love a set up like that if I had the need, but my safe is out of normal view (walk-in closet).

Your idea of buiding the exterior with sheet rock, but not building it into a wall, would seem to be a good choice.
As for a single layer of 5/8" sheetrock, I'm not sure that would do much, but it would be better than nothing. Retail gun safes use multiple layers of sheetrock to achieve fire resistance. They seek to protect against a 1200 degree fire for 30 minutes or more, depending on price and materials used. The temperature is the estimate reached in a house fire by UL and other rating agencies.


One other point - unless you're welding the seams of the interior steel box portion of the safe, you'd still have less fire protection than a retail safe with welded seams and sheet rock insulation. I do understand the cost concerns of going retail and the desire to STILL hide the safe, but you need to consider the pros and cons of a home built effort.

 

[MasterShinken]

I am actualy hoping to learn to weld and this was a project that I thought would help me with it a bit. I would have to see how many layers of sheetrock I could fit into the design I have and space concerns. I wouldn't be able to build it into the wall as I live in an apartment so would want to be able to move it when I decide to buy a house (hopfuly in NH!) That sounds awesome what the guy did though!

Partialy i'm doing it cause I can spread the cost out over a long period. I am also doing it as I realy like a good challange for a new project and taking on projects that force me to learn a new skill (such as with this project I would learn welding, lock setting, and how to control a good 60 servos and stepper motors thru a secure communications pathway ) as far as getting it to resist 1200 degrees for 30 min... well, this will be my beta type safe, lol.

Awsome info man, Thanks!
Hopfuly I will have progress pics up at some point in the future

 

[Titan]

Good luck with your project. Pictures of progress would be awesome.

 

[MasterShinken]

Oooo I just got an interesting idea.... Firebrick. I remember making a small propain forge out of them a while ago... if I could get a good bunch of those, that should keep out quite a bit of heat